Appropriate use of Spot check

[dpico]

There was some debate in our group regarding the appropriate use of the Spot check. Obviously, you use the Spot check in the event that your opponent is hiding or in terrain with significant concealment. What do you do in other situations, though?

For example, if 2 groups are approaching on flat grass land, with no attempt to hide, when do you see other? Do you use Spot as the appropriate skill? Special modifiers, etc.

The example in my group was that a player was flying above a fort and there were 2 monsters walking on the roof. The monsters were just patrolling and were making no attempt to hide. The character was about 400 feet in the air but was told he could not see the creatures due to the distance. The spot DC was increased by 1 for every 10 feet (per the rules according to the DM), so the DC was very difficult if not impossible. The ruling does not seem correct to me.

Can anyone provide guidance on this?

 

[noretoc]

The penalty for spot should only apply when a spot check is needed in the first place. If you had been say ten feet above them and still needed a spot check for some reason (cover, camoflage, etc) then the penalty does apply for being so high and far away. However if they are not hiding and are visible, then you should be able to spot them without any roll, therefore no penalty. The dm guide has information about line of sight on unobstuctied view under encounter distance. I don't know how far, but it is much farther than 400 feet. Trying to roll to spot a hidden door from that height would would require a roll and have the penalty for distacne apply. I hope this made sense to you.

 

[javcs]

To spot a medium creature at 400ft above the creature, the DC is 40, modified from there by size modifiers, and groups of creatures count as larger creatures to spot the group.

 

[Jhulae]

There's a 'Stealth and Detection' section, including spot distances, for most terrain types found here.

The Underdark sourcebook for FR also has a table that shows how far away light sources can be seen from. I'm not sure if that's been reeprinted somewhere else.

 

[dpico]

To spot a medium creature at 400ft above the creature, the DC is 40, modified from there by size modifiers, and groups of creatures count as larger creatures to spot the group.

This is basically what the DM said, though it does not really make sense. For example, a football field is 300 feet long and I can certainly see from 1 end of a field to the other. Based on the Spot rules it would be a DC 30 plus/minus any applicable modifiers. The vast majority of people would be unable to make this DC. Particular details might be hard to spot but the creature should still be able to be spotted unless it is taking steps to hide.

 

[hong]

The assumption seems to be that Spot checks are only called for when the other guy is actually trying to hide. If they're not, you go by encounter distances in the DMG and/or common sense.

 

[javcs]

This is basically what the DM said, though it does not really make sense. For example, a football field is 300 feet long and I can certainly see from 1 end of a field to the other. Based on the Spot rules it would be a DC 30 plus/minus any applicable modifiers. The vast majority of people would be unable to make this DC. Particular details might be hard to spot but the creature should still be able to be spotted unless it is taking steps to hide.

True. Personally, I would have assigned circumstance bonuses to spot the creatures if they were moving around and/or stood out from the background of the roof, ie, if the roof is black, and they're wearing non-black clothing/armor.
Bear in mind though, that it's just as hard for them to spot you.

 

[noretoc]

To spot a medium creature at 400ft above the creature, the DC is 40, modified from there by size modifiers, and groups of creatures count as larger creatures to spot the group.

Where are you finding this. The maximum distance a spot check can succeed to spot a creature on the open plains id 6d6*40. That is a maximum if 1440 feet. You saying that you would need a 20 in your spot check unaided to have a chance of seeing somone 400 feet away. Dosen't that seem wrong to you?

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Hong is correct. You don't use Spotting distances if Spotting is not necessary in the first place. Using Spot skill implies that there is SOMETHING special happening that requires a SKILL to be able to see it, or realize what you're looking at if you DO see it. Simply looking down from above at creatures not attempting to hide does not use Spot distances, DC's nor even the use of the Spot skill at all to determine of you see them. You use common sense. Common sense will tell you that even if you can't identify an individual or the race of a creature, the human eye most easily spots movement. People can be detected at THOUSANDS of feet, not hundreds (read: miles), especially if they're moving and NOT trying to hide or avoid detection. But as soon as you start trying to move from cover to cover, blend in with your environment, etc, that distance shrinks dramatically, even to nothing.

 

[javcs]

Where are you finding this. The maximum distance a spot check can succeed to spot a creature on the open plains id 6d6*40. That is a maximum if 1440 feet. You saying that you would need a 20 in your spot check unaided to have a chance of seeing somone 400 feet away. Dosen't that seem wrong to you?

It's in the spot skill description, and again in HoB (I think) with modifiers for groups of creatures.
DC is +1 per 10ft, 400ft/10ft=40, +/- size, circumstance, and any other appropriate modifiers.

I never said that it made sense, and in fact, I said that I would probably assign bonuses to the spot checks if they stood out against their surroundings. Assuming, of course that a spot check was called for.

As the Man in the Funny Hat said, the rules don't always work.