Anyone else think Bakemono are HARD?

kristov

Explorer
Me and some friends played a small game of Rokugan d20 last night and I put 3 Bakemono up against the 4 of them.

The Bakemono's are CR 1/2 and have 5 hp, so thats normal.

Then you have an Armor Class of 17 - for a 1/2 CR monster. So thats a bit odd.

But then you look a little further down the stat chart and they have 3 attacks - bite +3 and 2 claws -2 to hit. THe bite does 1d8+2 dmg and the claws do 1d6+1 dmg.

Its a 4 foot goblin with a long sword for a mouth and 2 short swords for hands.

STR 14 DEX 10 CON 10 (i think are the important stats). Either way, thats a bad little mother-$%&@^*$@.

-Chris

P.S. The 4 player characters died after 3 rounds. They did take out 1 of the 3 bakemono.
 
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The Bakemono should go down with one hit or one spell. An 18 str samurai with cleave has a 45% chance to kill one and 20% of killing two each round. That increases to 55% and 30% on a charge and the Bakemono are only going to get their full attack after the party gets a chance to go. Even with a full attack, a single Bakemono isn't likely to take down a fighter in a single round. Lets say the samurai has 12 hp and AC 16. The bakemono hits 40% of the time with the primary attack and 15% of the time with a secondary and it takes about 2 hits on average to take down a fighter.

Was it a 1st or 2nd level party?
 

1st level party

They were a starting off 1st level party.

1 Samurai with Katana, and Way of the Crab, Power Attack Feats

1 Shugenja with Long Spear

1 Berserker (Barbarian) with Large Hammer

1 Ranger (Scout) with Chain Weapon

They party was decently put together - no one sucked or anything but the Bakemono's just ate them for lunch big time.

There were 3 bakemono's originally.

The party took 1 down in the first round, and in the 2nd round the bakemono shredding machines went to town - hitting like 4 out of 6 attacks and taking down the Scout and the Samurai. IN the 3rd round the shugenja and berserker fell after whiffing thier hits on the AC17 bakemono's.

Pretty bad overall. I just cant believe that the "goblin" like substitute is a shredding machine on wheels.

-Chris
 

How many 1st-level samurais have a Strength score of 18? Does Rokugan use a special dice-rolling system, or do samurai get Strength bonuses starting from 1st-level?

A creature's CR is supposed to be balanced against a party consisting of one wizard, one rogue, one cleric that spontaneously converts cure spells, and one fighter, using 25 point buy. If the party couldn't even beat the creatures, tehn obviously their CR is a bit flawed.

If a party has an 18-stat character at 1st-level, the DM should raise the EL. That means more of these unbalanced creatures, and more party members getting knocked down.
 

An orc is a CR 1/2 creature and it can crit for 40+ damage but that isn't common. A bakemono is nowhere near as deadly as a ghoul, CR1. They don't have the ranged attacks that orcs and goblins have either.

Sleep or hypnosis would have ended this encounter quickly but its 3 fighter types and a cleric. I'm sure in any APL+1 enouncter with 1st level characters there is probably a 5% chance the party will lose. In an average round the party should have been able to kill 2 bakemono. The odds of a repeat of those results with that same party is probably less than 5%.

An 18 is not impossible with a 25 pt buy. Its more common to see 16,14,14 than 18,13,12 but not that much more common. 25 pt buy is extremely rare with 28 and 32 being much more common.
 

:)

Well, anyone who lets normal melee monster get full attack deserves to be hurt badly. I suggest better tactics for players next time... .)

Z.
 


No, no, no.

The Bakemono are definitely not CR 1/2 for what abilities they have. A small group almost wiped out my PC's as well (killed only one, thankfully - and I'm a generous DM). Occasionally they come up, and the players jokingly view them as dangerous as dragons (only HALF jokingly, mind you).
 


Aren't Ghouls CR 2?

I'd say that as described the Bakemono is probably a tougher foe than a CR 1 Gnoll, granting that a Gnoll is a weak CR 1. I'd be very tempted to bump them to CR 1, because they are clearly a very strong CR 1/2 and a worthy foe certainly up to 3rd level and possibily for 4th level characters.

It's bite is by itself nearly as rough as an Orc's Great Axe in terms of likeliness to hit and damage done. Bakemono therefore make a problimatic low level encounter, because the bite is intrinsic to the foe, and the DM can't simply avoid the potential problem as they can with orcs by giving the orcs morning stars or greatclubs to keep the foe reasonablely matched to the party. Add to that the additional two attacks per round and I do see a potential problem. Add to that a suggested AC of 17, and the Bakemono are probably at least as dangerous as 1st level ECL 0 fighters with average h.p. and attributes.

Let's assume average AC for a first level character is around 15, then a full attack from a Bakemono does an average of 4.7 damage per round. Assuming the average attack bonus for 1st level characters is +2 (which is generous), and the average damage 7 (also generous), the PC's are doing on average 2.1 damage each in return. One thing is pretty clear. One on one, Bakemono will wipe out most 1st level PC's. So, three vs. four was probably too much for a first level party. Too much can go wrong. I would do the math as follows. Three Bakemono = 15 h.p. Average survival time = Two rounds. Average Damage Generated in Two rounds = 28 Likelihood of Player Death = Very High. Likelihood of TPK do to early PC death or poor luck = High.

Don't whine about poor tactics without actually knowing how the game was played. Avoiding a full attack by the Bakemono is going to be problamatic if they charge, or otherwise appear at close range, or win initiative. The next round after contact you are faced with the choice of taking an attack of oppurtunity (from the bite!), doing nothing, or facing a full attack the next round. I think personally that taking an AoO from the bite is a worse option than facing the claw sequence of a full attack action.

I do want to point out that even if the CR of the creatures is 1/2, the encounter is above the level of the party. How would the party have fared against only two Bakemono? It sounds like the Party wasn't able to get much use out of the AoO they might have recieved from the Chain and Longspear. Did the Bakemono have surprise or some other factor which made this already dangerous encounter even more deadly?

I also want to point out that if 3rd edition follows 1st edition (I haven't paid much attention to 3rd ed. OA), the OA PC classes are slightly more powerful (especially at low levels) than other core classes, so the designers may have been generous with the abilities of low level foes as well.
 

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