D&D 5E Am I missing something on 2014 rogue?

[Sword of Spirit]

I occasionally see it mentioned that rogues are weak, but that hasn't been my experience. I'm wanting to find out where the difference in perspective comes from.

Is it based on fighters optimizing feats like Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master? In that case, it does move them onto a whole different level than a featless, single-class, fighter, and rogues have no feats that can do the same thing. I know some people consider that fighters need those feats to be a decent class, so I could understand the argument from that perspective.

Is it based on even a featless rogue not having an expected DPR on par with the warrior (all martial weapons plus d10 HD) classes? Rogues occupy a space between the warriors and the other class/subclasses that just have a little something to help them in melee but aren't that good at it. The rogues are much closer to the warriors though in the damage dealing department. Since they also have neat tricks, cool defenses, and the best skill mastery of any character by far, that feels like about the right place to me. If you are coming from a perspective where all non-casters should have approximately equal DPR and approximately equal other stuff (rather than sacrificing some DPR being acceptable to excel in other areas) I can understand it from that perspective.

Here's the math for a single-class, featless, DPR potential comparison for TWF rogues (and assuming you are basically getting sneak attack every round as intended), along with sword and board Dueling style fighters and Great Weapon style greatsword fighters at various levels (and assuming 21 rounds of combat, 2 short rests, and Action Surge usage for attacking).

Rogue 5 = 21.5
Rogue 11 = 33
Rogue 17 = 43.5
Rogue 20 = 47

Dueling Fighter 5 = 24
Dueling Fighter 11 = 39.4
Dueling Fighter 17 =44.4
Dueling Fighter 20 = 59.1

Great Weapon Fighter 5 = 28.2
Great Weapon Fighter 11 = 45.7
Great Weapon Fighter 17 = 51.4
Great Weapon Fighter 21 = 68.6

Considering that fighters are the best class at this melee weapon DPR, those numbers seem like a pretty good fit to me. The sword and board fighter isn't much higher than the rogue in general, and the greatsword wielder is appropriately better. A 20th level fighter's DPR takes a huge jump, but that's because that 4th attack per round is their capstone. The rogue gets to reroll a miss 1/rest as part of their capstone and I couldn't immediately think of a way to calculate that in.

Am I missing other considerations, or is just those two I was wondering about that give me different assumptions?

 

[Horwath]

rogues have less damage, less AC. less HPs, worse saves(Con>Dex), question is, do those 2 extra skills and 4 expertise with reliable talent really out weight that?

 

[TheSword]

rogues have less damage, less AC. less HPs, worse saves(Con>Dex), question is, do those 2 extra skills and 4 expertise with reliable talent really out weight that?

They only do less damage once multiple attacks come online. At the levels that most people play at Rogues deal very well damage wise. They also get preservation techniques like bonus action hide or disengage.

 

[aco175]

At my table rogues do fine and generally get to sneak attack. The fighter never takes any of the bigger feats though. Level 5 become more balanced with the damage. Depending on what weapon and where you put the 4th level ASI could depend on an extra +1 or 2 to hit or damage, especially with the finesse weapons if the take only a d4 or d6 weapon.

 

[mellored]

First "weak" for 5e is a much smaller gap than 3e.

And yes, less damage, less HP, less AC, less targeting opportunities (possibly not getting sneak attack), and more prone to overkill (i.e. kill one goblin vs kill 4 with action surge).

But that's kind of intentional since they have more skills and more maneuverability.

You certainly don't want to stick a rogue in the front line.

 

[Parmandur]

I occasionally see it mentioned that rogues are weak, but that hasn't been my experience. I'm wanting to find out where the difference in perspective comes from.

The main thing the whiteboard theory crafting misses is that the 2014 design intent is for the Rogue to have Advantage on every single Round, essentially. Hence the 2024 changes that simply make that more apparent and easier.

 

[GrimCo]

Rogues are sneaky hit and run fighters. Come in, shank in the kidney, disengage and move out. Or better yet, sneak it from the distance. Use goblin tactics. Short bow, stay at 80ft, shoot for sneak attack, bonus action- hide. In melee, your lv1 rogue hits for 1d8+1d6+4 ( rapier, sneak, 18 dex). Without feats, Rogue can outdamage fighter until fighter gets second attack in melee. But they can also run(hide) and gun better than rest of the classes.

 

[ezo]

I occasionally see it mentioned that rogues are weak, but that hasn't been my experience.

It hasn't been my experience, either. In our current party, the rogue routinely deals as much or more damage than our other martials. He has more versatility, an AC that is almost as good, nearly as many HP, more mobility, etc.

Fewer HP is more or less garbage IME. It is only a difference of 1 hp + 1 hp per level on average. The "lower AC" issue is also greatly a non-factor considering how easily everything hits in 5E.

Frankly, I've never heard a compelling argument that the rogue is really weaker, if weak at all. Certainly a particular build here or there might suffer in comparison to some other martial builds, but that generally is by design and a feature---not a bug.

 

[J-H]

Rogues are generally OK in my experience. The one caveat is that they don't have the ability to greatly increase their damage, which makes them seem weak in nova situations. Fighters can action surge (+ubercrit/maneuver/fighting spirit), Paladins can smite+smite+smite spell, casters can use 8th-9th level spells... and rogues are still doing 50-60 damage with no way to spike it except off-turn reaction attacks (or GFB/BB).

But I think they're fine. The only time I played a rogue and didn't have fun was one where I was trying to use a shield but kept having to switch back to my bow because we were fighting a dragon in a volcano.

 

[jgsugden]

Think of it another way: How do they balance the spotlight?

Of all the archetypes, the scout/rogue/sneak role is the one that gets the most spotlight if they elect to take it. If the PCs arrive at a cave complex and want to scout it out, the rogue may spend 30 to 60 minutes solo roleplaying as they locate enemies, figure out access points, etc... They get a chance to have a solo spotlight on them that can last for a significant amount of time.

Not all DMs or players 'feed into' this type of activity. Some PCs never scout. Some DMs reduce the whole scouting expedition to a single roll of the die and then a brief explanation of what was seen - but other DMs let the PC play out that chapter of the story in detail. This is often one of the most tense moments in D&D - one PC without a safety net that constantly is electing to press their luck further or return to their allies with the information gathered. That is a huge spotlight.

With that much spotlight inherently available to them, it makes sense that they have less spotlight in combat - but they still get the capability to have amongst the most powerful single damage strikes in the game ... which can allow them to break concentration, take down a foe that was at moderate health all at once, etc... As such, they still get some combat spotlight.

Finally, they are better in combat than most people give them credit for being if you push them. My last rogue, through careful planning and coordination with allies, was able to attack once during their turn and once as a readied / reaction action in almost every round of combat for most of their career. When you double up that sneak attack it gets to be a lot. At 20th level (Assassin 17/sorcerer 3) I was dealing about 250 damage (4d8 arrow +2d8 commander strike + 20 sharpshooter +12 dexterity +6 magic bow +4 bracers of archery +36d6 sneak attack + 4d6 hex + 12d6 quickened scorching ray) in the first round of combat without expending significant resources - and I was sometimes doing that from insane distances as an archer.