Alternate Weapon Proficiency Systems

theoremtank

First Post
I'm just wondering if anyone has created an alternate weapon proficiency system out there? If so I would be interested in viewing it. I'm not exactly sure of my thoughts on the core system right now, but I just started wondering if it would be possible to create a better more consistent system. I'm not implying that the current system is not good, I'm just asking "what if we could make it better?"

Things that do bother me about the current system:
Specific weapon lists for certain classes bothers me because it seems to ignore the point of having weapon catagories such as simple and martial weapons. I do realize that giving each of the classes proficiency in either Simple, Martial weapons or both takes away from some of the color for the classes. A possible solution to this would be to further break down the catagories into (for instance) six different weapon catagories. Different combinations of these coudl be assigned based on class.

It would be interesting to see the number of proficiencies for a character increase based on his base attack bonus (maybe too much 2nd edition here, or just needless complexity).

In any case I would just like to gather potential house rule ideas on the subject.

Thanks
 

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I use a weapon group proficiency system. Weapons are grouped into similiar weapon types as followed:

Axes : hand axe, throwing axe/hatchet, battle axe, great axe, bardiche, dwarven axe (dwarves only).
Hammers/Picks : light hammer, warhammer, light pick, heavy pick.
Lances/Spears : light lance, heavy lance, short spear, half spear, long spear.
Small Blades : cutlass, short sword, saber.
Medium Blades : falchion, long sword, scimitar, bastard sword.
Large Blades claymore, great scimitar, zweihander sword (two-handed sword).
Flails/Maces : light flail, heavy flail, maul, great club, light mace, heavy mace.
Polearms : awl pike, glaive, guisarme, halberd, ranseur, scythe.
Bows : short bow, composite short bow, long bow, composite long bow.
Crossbows : hand crossbow, light crossbow, heavy crossbow, repeating crossbow.
Simple: dagger, club, quarterstaff, sling.

Fighters and Paladins pick 8 out of the 11 groups to be proficient with. Rangers and Barbarians pick 6 out of the 11 groups to be proficient with. Rogues are proficient in Simple, Small Blades, Bows, and Crossbows. Bards are proficient in Simple, Small Blades, Medium Blades, Bows, and Crossbows. Druids have their own list of weapons. Clerics are granted proficiencies based on their religion. Sorcerers and Mages are proficient only in Simple.

The Martial Weapon feat grants proficieny in one group. Weapons not listed may be acquired via the Exotic Weapon feat.
 
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weapon groups

I have a similar thing, though mine makes the Weapon Proficiency feat less effective. These rules assume a fairly cinematic campaign, where warriors often snatch up the dropped weapon of their foes and wield it as if they had grown up with one in their hands.

The rules work this way:

Non-Proficiency Penalty: The non-proficiency penalty for weapons varies. Simple and Martial weapons have a -4 nonproficiency penalty, while Exotic weapons have a -8.

Special Properties: A weapon's special properties (tripping, disarming, etc) are only available to proficient users.

Synergy: If you have proficiency with one Martial or Exotic weapon in a group, your non-proficiency penalty for weapons in that group are halved. A second proficiency in a group halves the penalty again. Additional proficiencies have no additional synergy benefits.

The Groups:
(including OA and Rokugan weapons; weapons unique to my campaign in parentheses)

Slashing: Weapons in this group cut like a knife.
Sickle, Longsword, Scimitar, Kama, Kukri, Wakizashi, Ninja-to, Katana, Shikomi-Zue, No-Dachi. (jian, calligrapher's sword, moon knife, long-handled sword)

Cleaving: Weapons in this group cut like the point of a wedge, splitting things apart through sheer force.
All Axes(in melee), Pick, Falchion, Glaive, Greatsword, Guisarme, Scythe, Bastard Sword, Two-bladed Sword, Nagamaki, Naginata, Butterfly Sword, Ono. (Dragon halberd, zanbatoh, dire scythe)

Stabbing: These weapons are sharp-pointed devices that are used to poke an enemy's vitals.
Dagger, Rapier, Ranseur, All Spears(in melee), Siangham, Sang Kauw, Aiguchi, Tanto, Vajra. (gythka)

Chain Weapons: These weapons are chains or chainlike devices whose ends are the offensive portion.
Spiked Chain, Chain, Chijiriki, Kawanaga, Kusari-gama.

Jointed Weapons: These weapons are segmented staves, wielded as bludgeons via rotation, or highly exotic weapons using similar motions.
Nunchaku, Kau Sin Ke, Three-Section Staff. (Fighter's cloak, scarf, sleeve, fighting fan, singing sticks)

Fistload Weapons: These are devices that make the fist a deadly weapon.
Punching Dagger, Nekode. (Joint spikes, jaguar claws)

Concussive Weapons: These weapons crush and smash and pulp.
Maces, Hammers, Sap, Clubs, Jitte, Tonfa, Sai, Die Tsuchi, Tetsubo, Machi-Kanishisha Pipe.

Staff Weapons: The staff has its own fighting style.
Quarterstaff, Jo, Bo, Daijo.

Capturing Weapons: These entangle and subdue.
Sodegarami, Sasumata.

Spun Weapons: These launch missiles via a spinning motion.
Sling, bolas.

Simple Bows: Not crossbows.

Crossbows.

Thrown Weapons.

Whips.

Nets.

Some of these weapons realistically don't belong in these groups, notably the Kukri in Slashing rather than Cleaving, but some allowances must be made for balance of group size.

With this change, I'm also restructuring the weapon proficiency class abilities some, but I don't quite know how yet.
 

Mine's a bit more complex, so this'll be a bit long. The basic concept is that weapons can have more than one Proficiency Group (if it has more than one it's an exotic weapon).

All Proficiency Groups fall into three categories: Simple, Martial, Exotic.

Simple and Martial groups go like this:
Untrained: -4 to attack with all weapons in the category
Partial: +0 to attack with one weapon in the category, -2 to all others
Full: +0 to attack with all weapons in the category
Expert: +1 to attack with all weapons in the category
Master: +2 to attack and +1 damage with all weapons in the category
(Expert replaces Weapon Focus, Master is a new one)

Exotic groups go like this:
Untrained: Exotic benefits do not apply
Full: Exotic benefits apply to all weapons in the category
Expert: +1 to attack with all weapons in the category, in addition to Full
(These replace the old EWPs)

This means that if you pick up a Two-Bladed Sword and don't have the Exotic proficiency, you can still use it as a single-end weapon.

Also, Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical can be taken by any class, although they require Expert proficiency (certain classes only require Full; the heavy fighter-types only need Full for WS, the finesse types need Full for IC)

The longer list:
(Notations: each asterisk means an Exotic group. A ^ means it's a double weapon with two different ends; each end will use a different Simple/Martial proficiency)

SIMPLE CATEGORIES
Natural Weapon: Unarmed Attacks (including the improved Monk attacks), Natural Weapons, Gauntlets
Light Piercing: Dagger, Punching Dagger, Spiked Gauntlet, Siangham/Halfling Siangham*, Bladed Gauntlet
Light Slashing: Sickle, Kama/Halfling Kama*, Kukri*, Kusari-Gama^**
Light Bludgeoning: Light Mace, Heavy Mace, Morningstar, Club, Quarterstaff*, Nunchaku/Halfling Nunchaku*
Light Spear: Shortspear, Halfspear
Crossbow: Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Repeating Crossbow*, Hand Crossbow*
Light Ranged: Dart, Sling, Javelin, Shuriken*, Blowgun
MARTIAL CATEGORIES
Medium Piercing: Short Sword, Rapier, Light Lance, Elvish Thinblade*, Dwarven Urgrosh*^
Medium Slashing: Long Sword, Scimitar, Two-Headed Sword*, Wakizashi**, Mercurial Longsword*
Medium Chopping: Throwing Axe, Handaxe, Battleaxe, Light Pick, Heavy Pick, Gnome Hooked Hammer*^
Medium Bludgeoning: Sap, Light Hammer, Warhammer, Gnome Hooked Hammer*^, Greatclub
Heavy Slashing: Greatsword, Falchion, Bastard Sword*, Khopesh*, Katana**, Fullblade*, Mercurial Greatsword*, Daikatana*
Heavy Chopping: Greataxe, Halberd, Scythe, Dwarven Waraxe*, Dwarven Urgrosh*,^ Orc Double Axe*
Heavy Piercing: Longspear, Glaive, Guisarme, Ranseur, Trident, Heavy Lance, Naginata*
Bow: Shortbow, Composite Shortbow, Longbow, Composite Longbow
Flexible Weapon: Light Flail, Heavy Flail, Dire Flail*, Spiked Chain*, Whip*, Net*, Kusari-gama^**

EXOTIC CATEGORIES
Double Weapon: Quarterstaff, Two-Headed Sword, Dire Flail, Gnome Hooked Hammer, Dwarven Urgrosh, Orc Double Axe, Kusari-gama, Dire Flail
Exotic Benefit: The weapon may be used as a double weapon with all the normal rules and modifiers, although nonproficiency in the Simple/Martial groups carries the usual penalties. A user without this proficiency can use the weapon as a single weapon with no penalty or as a double weapon with a -4 nonproficiency penalty.

Heavy Weapon: Bastard Sword, Dwarven Waraxe, Elvish Thinblade, Fullblade, Khopesh, Katana, Wakizashi
Normal: The weapon is a light weapon for any wielder of larger size than the weapon, may be used one-handed by any wielder of the same size, or two-handed by any wielder one size smaller. (Note that the Bastard Sword, Dwarven Waraxe, and Elvish Thinblade have been erratad to be Large weapons, while the Fullblade has been changed to Huge.)
Exotic Benefit: The weapon is wielded as if it were one size smaller. It becomes a light weapon for a user of the same size, may be used one-handed by a user one size smaller than the weapon, or used two-handed by a user two sizes smaller. (Note that this allows for a Halfling to use a Bastard Sword, or a Human to use a Fullblade.)

Exotic Ranged: Repeating Crossbow, Hand Crossbow, Shuriken
Exotic Benefit: Hand Crossbows may be reloaded as a move-equivalent action; Repeating Crossbows may use the full-attack option; up to three Shuriken may be thrown as one attack.

Entangling Weapon: Whip, Net, Spiked Chain, Kusari-gama
Exotic Benefit: Whips, Spiked Chains, and Kusari-gamas gain a +2 bonus to opposed attack rolls to disarm an opponent and may make trip attacks; Nets take two rounds to fold for re-use (instead of four) and their Escape Artist DC increases from 15 to 20.

Monk Weapon: Nunchaku, Siangham, Kama, Halfling Nunchaku/Siangham/Kama
Exotic Benefit: When used by a character with an improved Base Attack Bonus progression for unarmed attacks, the wielder may use the unarmed progression.

Fine Weapon: Kukri, Wakizashi, Katana, Daikatana, Naginata
All weapons in this category must be of ?masterwork? quality (Fine Steel or better) regardless of proficiency.
Exotic Benefit: The critical threat range increases by 1; the Naginata becomes 19-20/x3, while the others become 18-20/x2. This is taken into account before any other factors, such as Keen or Improved Critical.

Flowing Weapon: Mercurial Longsword, Mercurial Greatsword
Exotic Benefit: The user receives a +4 competence bonus to critical hit confirmation rolls. Also, unlike other exotic groups, nonproficient users get a -4 attack penalty.
--------
Anyway, so classes translate pretty easily. All classes get Full proficiency in all Simple groups IMC. Bards pick any one Martial group, all Clerics get Partial with their deity's favored weapon, Monks get the Monk Weapon exotic. Most of the other fighter-types get Full in all the Martial groups.

Some of the weapons listed have different stats than listed in PHB/DMG/S&F (like the Kukri and Katana)
 

I divided the martial weapoons into 7 groups. Fightyers are proficient in all seven, rangers, pladins, and barbarians get three groups.
 

In the futureistic campaign that I run, I've divided them into firearms, laser swords, swords, clubs, staffs, spears, polearms, chains, whips, crossbows, bows, axes, lances, nets, scythes, and other similar broad categories of weapons.
 

Actually, you might want to do it by a skills system.

Weapon Skill (None)
Ranks in this skill grant you profencies with weapons.
Check: You do not make Weapon Skill checks. You are either proficient in a weapon, or you're not. One rank in Weapon Skill can get you proficiency with:
- 4 simple weapons
- 2 martial weapons
- or 1 exotic weapon

just a thought,
-Jeph
 
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Relic said:
I use a weapon group proficiency system. Weapons are grouped into similiar weapon types as followed:

Axes : hand axe, throwing axe/hatchet, battle axe, great axe, bardiche, dwarven axe (dwarves only).
Hammers/Picks : light hammer, warhammer, light pick, heavy pick.
Lances/Spears : light lance, heavy lance, short spear, half spear, long spear.
Small Blades : cutlass, short sword, saber.
Medium Blades : falchion, long sword, scimitar, bastard sword.
Large Blades claymore, great scimitar, zweihander sword (two-handed sword).
Flails/Maces : light flail, heavy flail, maul, great club, light mace, heavy mace.
Polearms : awl pike, glaive, guisarme, halberd, ranseur, scythe.
Bows : short bow, composite short bow, long bow, composite long bow.
Crossbows : hand crossbow, light crossbow, heavy crossbow, repeating crossbow.
Simple: dagger, club, quarterstaff, sling.

Fighters and Paladins pick 8 out of the 11 groups to be proficient with. Rangers and Barbarians pick 6 out of the 11 groups to be proficient with. Rogues are proficient in Simple, Small Blades, Bows, and Crossbows. Bards are proficient in Simple, Small Blades, Medium Blades, Bows, and Crossbows. Druids have their own list of weapons. Clerics are granted proficiencies based on their religion. Sorcerers and Mages are proficient only in Simple.

The Martial Weapon feat grants proficieny in one group. Weapons not listed may be acquired via the Exotic Weapon feat.

Relic, I like your system probably best of what I have seen so far as it is the closest thing so far to what I have been messing around with. I have created similar weapon groupings. I believe the currenct core proficiency system was designed the way it is because they wanted to keep it simple (i.e. you are either proficient with a weapon or not). I believe your system retains this simplicity. My system differs in that the classes do not get all their proficiencies up front, but that it is dependent on their BAB.
 

Alternate Weapon Profs

Short Rant...
The issue with the original setup is that it severely limits the game and weapon creativity, There is a handful of weapons which are simply better then 90% of their proficiency counterparts in 90% of situations... Examples... Long Sword, Longbow (who actually uses crossbows past level 3????) short swords... who ever uses halberds? or daggers? when great swords and shortswords are pretty much just better most of the time!
Especially when there are so many cool weapons in the D&D universe!

Solution! #1
I combined the skill approach with another style
Feats are valuable period. Nobody, unless a specific weapon is the basis of there char build, wants to waste one just for a cool weapon (well we probably want to but wont...)

So first you have to know what a weapon proficiency is really worth and then figure out how to reasonably compensate for it.

I use a point system of sorts with each individual weapon.

For example a shortsword versus an elvin lightblade (races of the wild) the bastard sword is better, higher die no drawbacks (except what 2 pounds?) so I assign it a higher proficiency value

Natural or Simple weapons 1
Examples
Unarmed, Club, Spear, Light and heavy crossbows

Martial or Staple weapons 2
Short Sword, Long Sword, Short and Longbow, hand crossbow

Exotic or Superior weapons 3
Jovar, Annulat (planar handbook) Dwarven waraxe, Bastard Sword, Greatbow, spiked chain, elvin courtblade (only two handed finessable weapon) Halfling war sling etc

Essentially its a DM intervention for every weapon, making the table can be a little annoying at startup and its good to consult the players but it helps allow more character creation flexibility, uniqueness, and balance weapon loadouts. Half the people on this site know the system as well as the designers do and have players or are players who exploit it. My 7th level party eats EL 11's for lunch...

So what you do is make a point system for each class by essentially "cashing in" the classes base proficiencies IE
Clerics have all simple weapons so you check the values you have for simple weapons and convert it into points.

Ex
Unarmed Attacks
Gauntlet 1
Unarmed strike 1

Light Melee Weapons
Dagger 1
Dagger Punching 1
Gauntlet spiked 1
Mace light 1
Sickle 1

One-Handed Melee Weapons
Club 1
Mace 2
Morningstar 2 or 3 (Dm ruling)
Shortspear 1

Two-Handed Melee Weapons
Longspear 1
Quarterstaff 1
Spear 1

Ranged Weapons
Crossbow, heavy 1
Bolts, crossbow
Crossbow, light 1
Bolts, crossbow
Dart 1
Javelin 1
Sling 1

Simple Proficiency is worth 21 points.

Obviously there's still room for improvement and I haven't finished the system yet. seeing as the spiked gauntlet is rated the same as a normal gauntlet and does more damage and its sometimes its tough to rate something for example the morningstar is simply superior to the mace (cheaper, lighter, multiple damage types) but isn't as superior as say a annulat

I also tend to limit certain classes to certain weapons for example, with 21 points I could have a cleric running around with a bastardsword (3 points) Annulats (3 points) greatbow (3 points) while a classic cleric is limited to the simple tree. So instead I put a point cap on

Clerics can only use there points on either simple weapons, or weapons only worth one point. or limit the amount of powerful exotic weapons they can buy to say 3 for base attack bonus 1 classes 2 for base attack .75 and 1 for .5 classes

Its really just the skeleton basics for a weapon proficiency purchasing system. Additional points are bought on a one for one basis with skill points and can be used freely without restriction.

The issue with changing the system is keeping it balanced, the reason that proficiency are feat based is to limit character progression speed, not to cap you at 40. So instead I make cap limits on the maximum number of skill points and feats allowed for each character. same as the base game. For example players can learn additional languages from in game tutors but only up to their maximum intelligence modifier (house rules may adjust) or gain proficiencies in certain skills by practicing them out of combat (training with a riding instructor for x days gives a +x bonus of ride checks) the whole reasons for feats is to avoid people from making overpowered characters by amassing small bonus's

A way to make acquiring these skills more problematic or to limit people abusing such a flexible system is to force characters to fight with weapons they aren't proficient with to become proficient with them or learn from a professional in an in-game setting (finding someone proficient with a Jovar or Annulat would be a quest in and of itself!) especially seeing as how keen some races might or might not be in sharing those skills... my current rule is either 3 months with a professional paid his character level in gold x 500 or NPC class x 250/lvl or use it approximately once per encounter for an entire character level. At the end of this the Character pays the appropriate feat/skill points/ gold and gains the desired proficiency.


Hope this is helpful if anyone wants a complete chart on my point system or has any suggestions or idea they can e-mail or post here and I'll check it out

E-mail
Taz0099@gmail.com
 

Actually, you might want to do it by a skills system.

Weapon Skill (None)
Ranks in this skill grant you profencies with weapons.
Check: You do not make Weapon Skill checks. You are either proficient in a weapon, or you're not. One rank in Weapon Skill can get you proficiency with:
- 4 simple weapons
- 2 martial weapons
- or 1 exotic weapon

just a thought,
-Jeph
Everyone should get extra skill points at first level is you go with this. Fighters/Barbarian get the most and wizards/sorcerers get the least.
 

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