All monsters equal? Goblin Warrior vs Kobold Skirmisher.

[Neubert]

A while ago, during a game, my players had a look through my MM to look at the stats for the monsters (there had been general complains about the players having too hard a time hitting them - and the monsters having too easy a time hitting the PC's).

They stumbled over the Goblin Warrior (p. 137) and the Kobold Skirmisher (p. 167), both level 1 skirmishers (awarding 100 xp). What they found was that the kobold were a lot weaker than the goblin "counterpart" and notified me. After brewing over it for a while, and not finding any similar posts, I finally took the time to write one myself.

Below, I'll list the differences between the Kobold and goblin skirmisher by mentioning the difference in stats from the Kobolds point of view.

So compared to a Goblin Warrior, the Kobold Skirmisher has:
-1 Perception
-2 HP
-2 AC
-2 Fort
-1 Ref
+1 Will

-6 Str
-1 Dex
-2 Wis
-2 Con
-2 Int
+7 Cha

Am I the only one that thinks that the Kobold is missing out? I am aware that there is no exact formula for making monsters and one should be careful about comparing them, but this seems to be some rather big differences. Especially the difference in AC stands out (which was also what my players noticed at first), as it is a +/- 10% chance to hit for players.

They have the same bonus to hit with their spears (+6) however.

At this time of writing, there are no errata for either of the two creatures.

 

[Dalzig]

That's interesting...

Then again, it's slightly fitting. Kobolds have always been considered a physically weak race, who use amazing traps and tactics to offset their disadvantages. Goblins, however, are generally portrayed as stupid meatheads, lacking tactics other than "Charge!"

[At least that's how I see them...]

 

[Mentat55]

I think the Kobold Skirmisher has several advantages which do not show up in the raw stats:

1. In my opinion, Shifty > Goblin Tactics.
2. If you have more than one kobold (and you certainly will, especially with minions), Mob Attack begins to add up.
3. If you build a kobold encounter with traps, Trap Sense adds some small value.

 

[scarik]

This analysis fails to take into account that Shifty is great while Goblin Tactics is trash.

Also Mom attack + combat advantage of the Kobold allows massive damage when swarming one person.

Mobile Ranged Attack does nothing normally and Great Position is ranged only and easily locked down by a fighter.

 

[Neubert]

The reason I did not delve into the powers is because I find that they can be harder to compare. I agree though, that the Kobolds generally have better powers. The Goblin warriors however are more versatile with both a ranged and melee weapon (and I put great position to excellent use with a couple of soldiers to hold the players off).
Anyway, it seems (when looking in the DMG for creating monsters) that it is actually the Goblin that has too high stats.

 

[DracoSuave]

Kobold Skirmisher is +6 to hit, 1d8+1d6 AC vs enemies it has combat advantage with, potentially more to hit, and is more mobile.
Goblin Warriors deal 1d8+2, 1d6+2 with ranged, and does 2d6 with ranged when it moves.

Hard to really compare them, honestly. They're about the same all-round. The Attribute bonuses mean nothing, really. Monsters are really more about their powers than their attributes.

 

[deleteme123456]

Mobile Ranged attack is great with stealth. Move into total concealment or superior cover, use Stealth (beat their passive perceptions, reasonably easy consider a goblin's stealth is high), use Mobile Ranged attack (a single action) to move and attack with combat advantage.

 

[Serphet]

mix this with 1 or 2goblin hexers... and goblin tactics gets nasty.

There is a clear cut method for making monsters btw, DMG 184. You'll find that almost all monsters in the MM fit that formula.

 

[Obryn]

Shifty is way, way better than Goblin Tactics. Kobolds can basically move most anywhere they want on the battlefield.

-O

 

[Obryn]

Also Mom attack + combat advantage of the Kobold allows massive damage when swarming one person.

There's a lesson here.

Never mess with a kobold's mom.

-O