Aid Another and Grappling?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Can you aid another in terms of grappling?

AID ANOTHER
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check.

 

[DM_Matt]

Yes! Let the kobold swarms begin!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Depends. Is a grapple check a to-hit roll?

I don't think it is, and therefore this particular application of Aid Another wouldn't apply.

However, I might consider expanding the Aid Another rules to include it so long as the kobold wishing to Aid Another is already part of the grapple, as it sounds like fun.

Note that at least one kobold is going to need to succeed at a grapple check normally. The rest will be able to automatically join in.

 

[Quinnman]

Depends. Is a grapple check a to-hit roll?

I don't think it is, and therefore this particular application of Aid Another wouldn't apply.

However, I might consider expanding the Aid Another rules to include it so long as the kobold wishing to Aid Another is already part of the grapple, as it sounds like fun.

Note that at least one kobold is going to need to succeed at a grapple check normally. The rest will be able to automatically join in.

From the SRD:

Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

There you have it

It also makes sense that 8 kobolds at a time can more easily start (and continue) the grapple with the human than a single one of them...
This, in part, is why small, low CR monsters can still be dangerous if played right

 

[Quinnman]

Also from SRD:

Joining a Grapple
If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple.

If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against.

This of course imply that the kobolds grapple as individuals and not as a group... so I guess the question becomes: Is grappling considered "melee combat"...?

IMHO it does. I think the "aid another" rule is very appropriate in grapples...

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I agree that aid another can be used for the melee touch attack to start a grapple, but can it also be used for subsequent grapple checks?

Personally, I will be allowing it regardless but when I was re-reading the aid another action it made me think that perhaps the RAW do not support such an interpretation. The other iffy part is that the subsequent grapple checks don't gave a set DC since they're opposed checks and I dunno how that might impact a set grapple check against DC 10 to aid another.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

From the SRD:


There you have it

Yeah, no kidding. It's patently obvious that the kobolds could aid another on the melee touch attack to start a grapple - it's no different than aiding another on a normal sword attack.

I don't think that's what Ogrork's asking though. I believe he wants to know if, once they're grappling, the kobolds could continue to aid another by grappling against a DC of 10.

RAW, I don't think they can (since a grapple check is like, but is not, an attack roll). It might be an interesting house rule, but it's probably a house rule.

 

[Liquidsabre]

The Aid Another action doesn't include a character in the actual grapple and they may continue to use the aid another action to aid an ally in a grapple (melee combat).

A character that uses the aid another action (by spending a standard action) is making "...a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat...".

So when an ally uses the Aid Another action to help a character in a grapple, they are attacking and beating (making melee attacks) at the opponent in the grapple, rather than helping by actually jumping in and grappling with their ally's opponent. This distracts and otrherwise inhibits the enemiy's ability to fight effectively against their ally, granting their ally either a +2 bonus to attack or +2 bonus to AC against their opponent.

RAW, I don't think they can (since a grapple check is like, but is not, an attack roll). It might be an interesting house rule, but it's probably a house rule.

Grapple or an attack roll, it is still melee combat. That is the only requirement in order for an ally to be eligible for the benefits received by the Aid Another action.

Edit- ah, my bad, I see what the problem here is. Right, RAW doesn't allow the Aid Another action to provide a +2 grapple bonus here, but definately a good houserule to add here.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think this falls in the "other ways" clause at the bottom of the rules for aiding another, of which the listed items are not all-inclusive. I allow aid another for just about any actions, myself. Giving up a standard action to give someone a +2 to their grapple check isn't overpowering in my experience, and it is fully within the realm of possibility given the open endedness of the aid another text.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A character that uses the aid another action (by spending a standard action) is making "...a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat..."

That's not the appropriate reading, I don't think. By leaving out parts of that sentence, you've changed the way it should be read.

If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action.

Can a kobold outside the grapple make a melee attack on the grappled human? Certainly. So he could certainly use the Aid Another action to grant the grappling kobold

either a +2 bonus on [its] next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of [the non-grapplers] next turn.

The question then becomes whether or not a grapple check follows any of those rules.

If the grappling kobold decided to attack with a light or natural weapon, then certainly it would apply, as both of those require attack rolls.

A grapple check, however, is not an attack roll - though it shares many similarities. Therefore, it does not apply in the "base case."

So, if I wanted to extend the Aid Another rules to cover grapple checks, I'd make use of this part of the Aid Another rules:

You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check.

However, I'd rule that the kobolds would need to follow the normal way such things work. If you want to Aid Another on a Disable Device check, you need to make your own Disable Device check. If you want to Aid Another on a Search check, you need to make a Search check.

Therefore, if you want to Aid Another on a Grapple check, you must make your own Grapple check against a DC of 10. You must therefore also be grappling with the target you want to provide the bonus against.