D&D 5E Advice on building a hunter of Necromancers and Undead

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm building a character that is MC Bard/Warlock, and hunts necromancers and undead. The concept is an order of Bards, Warlocks and probably some Rangers and various others, but all trained in Bard stuff, who use the skill set of spies, investigators and assassins to find and eliminate necromancers, liches, vampires, and the occasional Demonic cult. Like a Bardic spy Abhorsen (for those who know what an Abhorsen is). Part of the order's thing is using musical notes to disrupt and command undead back to their rest, so many of my spells will be flavored in that context, and he'll fight with a sword in one hand and a free hand, with a drum on his belt and bells on a bandoleer on his chest.

ANyway, I'm gonna take the Tome pact boon. We're starting at level 3, so I started with Bard, and I'm bard1/warlock2.

Race: Half-Elf

Background: Urban Bounty Hunter (using the trait to have contracts who help me find Necromancers, Red Wizards, and Undead)

Skills: Acrobatics, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Performance, Religion, Stealth

Bard Spells:
Message, Vicious Mockery
Cure Wounds, Sleep, Healing Word, Disguise Self

Warlock Spells:
Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Spare The Dying (from Undying patron)
Protection from Evil and Good, Hex, Armor of Agythis (sp)

Invocations: Not sure. Next level, I'll want Book of Ancient Secrets to go with my Tome, but for now...one of the spell ones? Maybe Agonising blast? The one that gives proficiency in deception and persuasion?

So, my first question is, is there anything obvious I'm missing here? SPells I didn't take that are really good against spellcasters or undead, etc?

Second, has anyone seen any good Bard subclasses that add some spy and/or assassin to the class? Lore is a good choice for any Bard, no matter what you want to do, but I could really do with just about anything in place of Valor's proficiencies. Like, a fighting style, for instance. ANyway, Lore's skill stuff definitely lets you take on any skill based role you want, but if someone knows of a homebrew assassin-ish bard college, I'd be greatful.

Also, if I can convince the GM to rebuild the Undaying Warlock spell list to better fight/protect against vamps, liches and evil casters, what spells you folks recommend?

 

[Jaelommiss]

This might seem really, really odd, but the Death Domain for clerics (DMG 96-97) is exceptional against undead.

The Reaper feature at level 1 allows you to gain the Chill Touch cantrip that stops regeneration (which undead tend to have), imposes disadvantage on attack rolls by undead targets until the end of your next turn (which stops them fighting you back), and the feature itself allows you to target two adjacent creatures with the cantrip (great at maximizing damage against weaker, swarming undead).

Inescapable Destruction, at level 6, lets you ignore necrotic resistance, which is found on several undead creatures. Unfortunately incorporeal undead tend to have complete immunity, but that's when you remember that clerics also have Sacred Flame and start dishing out radiant damage.

I'm not sure that this would actually help you a whole lot, however I can see a one level dip being useful if you swap one of your warlock cantrips for Chill Touch. Gaining martial weapon proficiency might help you with your sword fighting, depending on what weapon you want to use.

I'd recommend taking Chill Touch even without a dip in cleric. Disadvantage on every attack for an entire round will trivialize powerful solo undead. Comparing it against Eldritch Blast against a vampire at level 5-10, assuming no misses: 21 damage vs 4 (resisted) damage, disadvantage on both attacks that round, and opportunity attacks and legendary action attacks, and cut off 20HP per round regeneration. I know which one I would take, and it wouldn't be +17 damage.

My play experience with a level 5 Death Cleric in a campaign with lots of undead was interesting. Spirit Guardians (radiant) + doubled Chill Touch made hordes of weaker undead easy, and allowed me to conserve Turn Undead for their nasty leaders.


Edit: I just reread Chill Touch and it only applies disadvantage on attacks against the caster. If you plan on fighting the undead hand to hand this is less of a problem, though it does make Chill Touch weaker than I previously thought. Dipping cleric would give you medium armour and shields, granting you a bit more staying power on the front line.

 

[Gabriel Pendragon]

Mage slayer feat when you can take one might be something to look into. I do agree with going death domain cleric. Also wonder why would anyone want to take bard for any reason?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Interesting. At the least, that makes Chill Touch look pretty good. Not sure a third class is worth it, though. It is one level...idk.

I probably will take Chill Touch. Especially since I can take take EB at Warlock3 when I take the tome feature.

I'm also working on an alternate spell list for the Undying Warlock, to present to my DM as a varient that is more about taking down undead. Not sure what the patron of such a variant should be, though.

For now, I've got
lvl1
Detect Evil and Good (being able to know where undead and desecrated things/places are nearby is too on theme to pass up)
False Life (nothing else the warlock doesn't already have really seems appropriate)
lvl2
Gentle Repose, Silence
lvl3
Counterspell, Speak With Dead
Lvl4
(Unchanged) Aura of Life, Death Ward
lvl5
Dispel Evil and Good (obviously), Hallow
5th level has a lot of good options, here. Thought about Geas. Imo, that should be a Warlock spell anyway.

Fleshing this out makes me think that the Patron should be a Primal Spirit, or group of them. They don't like undead, or outsiders, or aberrations. And since the character is Rashemi, I'm comfortable with him serving a Primal Spirit.


Now I think I'll work out a College of Shadows for Bards, with some spy/assassin goodies.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

College of Shadows:

Proficiencies: Poisoner's Kit, Theive's Tools, Disguise Kit

Dimming Song: Spend a Bardic Inspiration Die. You and up to 5 allies become "dim". Other creatures who can hear your song, even if they can't understand it, have a penalty equal to the result of the die roll +your charisma modifier to Perception and Insight checks to notice dim creatures. They will avoid running into you, move out of your way, take things you try to hand them and make room for you in a crowded room, but they do so without consciously taking note of your presence. If you succeed on a Stealth or Deception check to either hide of disguise yourself, the GM may decide that creatures can't even try to notice you unless you do something that would otherwise draw attention.
For instance, if you are disguised as entertainment, servants, or functionaries in a court or fancy party, members of the court/partygoers just don't notice you, unless you do something distinctly unusual.

lvl6 Subtle Moves You can use a Bonus Action on your turn to apply a poison to a weapon, food, drink or object that you hold, or that adjacent to you, pick a lock, use slieght of hand to lift or plant something, and you can make a Stealth or Slieght of Hand check when you cast a spell, forgoing Verbal and Somatic components, or at least hiding them from prying eyes. Other characters can use perception to catch you out, as with any use of those skills.

lvl 14 Silver Tongue
Spend a Bardic Inspiration Die. sing a song or tell a tale or whatever as an Action. Anyone who can hear you is Fascinated unless they succeed on a wisdom save equal to your spell DC+the result of your Inspiration Die roll. Fascinated creatures have Disadvantage on saves against Charm, Sleep or Dominating effects, and you have Advantage on ability checks to Persuade, Decieve, Intimidate or otherwise influence Fascinated targets. Further, targets must make a wisdom save vs the same DC when the effect ends. If they fail, they do not hold a grudge, or even realize that you manipulated them, even if an effect like the Charm spell otherwise would result in hostility. All secondary effects, such as the Charm spell, and influence skills, otherwise work the same.


College of The Finely Buckled Swashes

Bonus Proficiencies: Gain a Fighting Style and choose one of the following proficiencies: Vehicles (water), Disguise Kit, Acrobatics, Athletics, Intimidation

Rakish Audacity: Add your Charisma Mod to Acrobatics checks. In addition, learn 2 of the following abilities. You'll gain more later.
you can spend a Bardic Inspiriation Die to do one of the following:
Audacious Fient: Bonus Action. Your next attack, or the next attack of a chosen ally against an enemy within 5ft of you has Advantage. Add the result of the Inspiriation Die to the damage roll if it succeeds.
Taunt: Action. While real sting comes from the words themselves, you put some magic into it, just in case. Target must be able to hear you. If the target fails a wisdom save, DC=your spell DC+die result, it becomes enraged, and clumsy It makes the same save at the start of every turn until it succeeds, falls unconscious or hits 0hp, at which point the effect ends. It has disadvantage on any attack or skill check roll that doesn't involve attacking you, and must make either Str or Dex checks to overcome any difficult terrain or obstacles in it's way. It cannot take the long way around. If it fails a check to overcome obstacles on it's way to you, it falls prone, taking 1d4 damage. It also gains a damage bonus against you equal to half your charisma modifier, rounded up.
Rakish Mockery: Bonus action, when you take any action that could result in dealing psychic damage to an enemy, or attack an anemy with a melee attack. One ally within 30ft of the enemy gains HP equal to the result of the Inspiration die roll + your cha mod.
Lead The Way: Bonus action, when you take any action that could result in dealing psychic damage to an enemy, or attack an anemy with a melee attack. The next ally to attack the enemy gains a bonus to their attack roll equal to the Inspiration Die roll, and add your Cha mod to damage.

lvl 6. Whenever you use your action to cast a spell, you can also make a melee attack with a one handed weapon.

lvl14: Gain an extra use of Bardic Inspiration, and two more Rakish Audacity abilities.


Any thoughts on those, before I try to get my DM to allow one of them?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Mage slayer feat when you can take one might be something to look into. I do agree with going death domain cleric. Also wonder why would anyone want to take bard for any reason?

Mage Slayer, definitely looks good for this build.
As for why anyone would play a bard, they're good? They are fun to play, they work well (lore could use something other than proficiencies, maybe some languages or something, idk and valor could use a fighting style instead of it's proficiencies, but mostly they work) and they're conceptually cool?

 

[Al2O3]

Since you are not asking for advice on what classes to pick, the paragraphs after this might not be helpful for you. The suggestion I do have is to take agonising blast for a solid damage option that should just about always work while at range and then either Armour of Shadows for nice equipment independent AC or Devil's sight to see through magic darkness.

However, for anyone else I would suggest a Paladin either full class or with a 2 or 3 level dip of Warlock for Eldritch Blast with Agonising blast and possibly a pact. For the other cantrip in that case I would go with prestidigitation or Booming Blade.

For full Paladin I would pick magic initiate for a ranged spell attack and for the multiclass I would pick warcaster (fits will with Booming Blade).

Mage slayer would probably be a good one for flavour of you need more anti-undead than what Paladin smites already provide. Clerics (life, light or death probably) should also be good.

 

[Gabriel Pendragon]

The entertainer background does half of the things a bard does just as well. The only reason I could think of to be a bard for this is due to the sharing stat mods. Still think death domain cleric fits better, and can give more roll bonuses than a bard can, has more smite undead abilities, and could probably replace the warlock levels too while you are at it. Raven queen is Lawful neutral, also gives you chill touch that can target two if they are within 5ft of each other. Could top the build off with crossbow mastery, warcaster and mage slayer, leaving two stat boosts to wis for maximum spell goodness.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Since you are not asking for advice on what classes to pick, the paragraphs after this might not be helpful for you. The suggestion I do have is to take agonising blast for a solid damage option that should just about always work while at range and then either Armour of Shadows for nice equipment independent AC or Devil's sight to see through magic darkness.

However, for anyone else I would suggest a Paladin either full class or with a 2 or 3 level dip of Warlock for Eldritch Blast with Agonising blast and possibly a pact. For the other cantrip in that case I would go with prestidigitation or Booming Blade.

For full Paladin I would pick magic initiate for a ranged spell attack and for the multiclass I would pick warcaster (fits will with Booming Blade).

Mage slayer would probably be a good one for flavour of you need more anti-undead than what Paladin smites already provide. Clerics (life, light or death probably) should also be good.

I am thinking about MC light cleric for a couple levels. That channel divinity and Warding Flare...I want. Death Cleric seems more about killing things with death magic, which is not what the concept is about. I know fluff is malleable, but still, the features support the fluff in this case.

Anyway, I'll def think about those invocations. I like gaze of two minds, but there is a spell for that, and Beguiling Influence is appealing, but seeing through magical darkness does hit the hunting supernatural evil note, and high cha already makes me decent at persuasion and deception. ALso, in a few levels I'll have bonus skills from lore bard, if I go that way.

The reason I'm not interested in ditching bard or warlock (other than enjoying the classes in general) or just splashing them is, the concept isn't just about fighting evil/undead, that part is just the harder part of the concept to build for without making a pally or cleric. The rest of the concept is an order of bards bound to an ancient power that has taught them how to destroy undead, necromancers, and the minions of both.

For background, the character and the order are from Rashemen, and [sblock=what I've figured out is,] the ancient power is a group of crow and raven spirits who had spent eons guiding the souls of those who served the land to their rest, and wandering the land, sometimes helping lost souls find their way, or imparting secrets in exchange for favors (and sometimes the promise of favors, if you're desperate enough to do something so foolish) and/or new secrets, new songs or new stories, and playing tricks on those who don't honor the land, or the dead. At some point, they witnessed one or more incursions from Thay. Undead legions tainting the soul of their landbound friends, cutting down their sacred trees, stealing the bodies of the dead, like they do. SO they gathered into a group, who their oldest followers came to call KuyÍnnaku (roughly, great raven god), and made a great Pact.
Important to note, those early followers were mostly bard types. Wandering story tellers, with a bit of hedge wizardry and a good working knowledge of the sort of magic involved in dealing safely with spirits, fey, and the like. So, sort of bardic hedge ritualists, I guess. [/sblock]

Long story short, the order is a bunch of bardic warlocks with an eclectic skill set centered around stopping undead, necromancers, and the normal bard things, like keeping lore, lifting spirits via inspirational songs and stories, and who use magically imbued musical resonance, especially with bells and wind instruments, but also with drums, to disrupt the magic of undeath. Character wise, they are more like real crows in behavior than the sort of mystical image of crows and ravens. Playful, loud, talkative, kinda shifty, very social, very loyal, very clever, and possessed of long memories, especially for kindnesses and unkindnesses, the latter of which they hold long grudges for.

The entertainer background does half of the things a bard does just as well. The only reason I could think of to be a bard for this is due to the sharing stat mods. Still think death domain cleric fits better, and can give more roll bonuses than a bard can, has more smite undead abilities, and could probably replace the warlock levels too while you are at it. Raven queen is Lawful neutral, also gives you chill touch that can target two if they are within 5ft of each other. Could top the build off with crossbow mastery, warcaster and mage slayer, leaving two stat boosts to wis for maximum spell goodness.

The entertainer does...maybe a third of what the Bard does? And not as well. Hell, just to get close you'd have to combine it with rogue, which comes with it's own stuff I've no interest in for this character, or I would already be building the character as a rogue/paladin with a warlock splash or something. And while, I'd totally play that character, it's not this character.

The Bard is a great class. Not sure what your deal with it is, or why you think "the class your asking for advice on building with sucks, play something else" is either good advice or even vaguely appropriate as a response to the OP of the thread.

That...sounds more aggressive than I mean it to be. It's just, like...I laid out what kind of character it needs to be already, and a Death Cleric doesn't even come close.

If I wanted to play a character who shines forth the holy sword in one hand, holy symbol shining bright, shield (or crossbow, for some reason?) in the other, shouting "The Power of Kelemvor Compells you!" at dead things till they go away or eat me to death, there are classes for that. I like them, too.

I mean no offense here, I'm just really confused by your posts, and it seems a bit like you just skimmed my posts, decided I knew nothing about the game, and went from there.

More to the point, the bard has more skills, more appropriate proficiencies, a spell list with somewhat more broad a set of uses IMO, the Death Cleric spells are necromancer spells. It's a necromancer. Of the raise dead and suck the life out of heretofor alive people variety. It's features are almost all about doing necrotic damage.
The light cleric at least does radiant stuff, which helps against plenty of supernatural evils, including undead. And martial weapon proficiency? Great. Bard gets the rapier, which is the only finesse martial weapon that fits the character at all.
So..I mean, I guess the Cleric spell list has more bonus giving spells. That's it.

IDK. Maybe you didn't intend your post to come off as condescending and frankly off topic, in which case I apologize for my tone in response. Suffice to say, not interested in playing a necromancer that duels other necromancers to death.