Level Up (A5E) Adept Question

[Erragar]

Something I've always hated about Unarmed / Martial Artist classes in D&D and rewrites (Except 1, which I'll get to) is that they get a d8 hit die. In a5e there are

• 2 Classes with d6's (Sorcerer, Wizard)
• 7 Classes with d8's (Adept, Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Rogue, Savant and Warlock)
• 4 Classes with d10's and (Fighter, Herald, Marshall and Ranger)
• 1 Class with d12's (Berserker)

Why? Why isn't the class who's main point is to punch things that can take tank shells with their fists and actually HARM them, has the same hit points as the guy singing in the tavern, the tinkerer, the holy man, the primalist, the thief, the detective and the guy that sold their soul and NOT the other class that routinely takes shots that equivalate to a tank shell and not get go down.

The only system that gets this right, is the Final Fantasy d20 system where their Martial Artists (Monks) have d12 hit dice. That make sense.

Adepts literally slam their bodies into wood, mithril and adamantine routinely... Why are they as squishy as the generic Divine Caster? the generic Primal Caster and the guy who doesn't want to get hit because he's picking your pockets? Why can the guy who's singing you to sleep have the same bodily hardness as the guy who can punch a hole in an Adamantine Golem?

Make it make sense!

 

[PauloR]

Solution (and im not sure asking for a homebrew solution) seems to be simply increase their hit die (to d10 probably).

But i do agree with you, another thing that would change (if i was going to mess with hit dice at all would be to demote ranger to d8.

If you want to be in meele and take hits for your weaker team members, you deserve the d10, and ranger doesn't seem like he would take a hit like an adept would (and certainly not for your team mates)

 

[Erragar]

Nah, Homebrew I can do, and have for like 30 years. I'm talking an official change to a d12 hit dice. That would make it 2 classes with the highest and 2 with the lowest, the rest in between. That works well symmetrically. They don't wear armor, so all they really have for defensiveness is their ability to dodge (Which if they're not a dodge-y character is bad) and their Hit Points. They should officially have more.

The design convention is that the unarmed adventurer isn't supposed to exist, so they make it just attractive enough for the anime crowd, but make it unplayable in reality. Monks in D&D are ranked as one of the worst classes because they make no sense, they fall off dramatically vs other classes and they eat floor more than the do Jackie Chan stuff.

It's time to respect the guy that can put his fist through Adamantine...

 

[Tessarael]

I'm not sure that d10 hit dice are needed to balance Adept vs. Fighter. An Adept is not intended to be a tanky character that absorbs a lot of damage. Rather, the Adept/Monk archetype is that they are nimble and evasive. Duck into combat, whap whap whap, move away again if it is dangerous, or use Dodge bonus action to boost AC. The Adept in our A5E campaign worked really well as is, but did get knocked down to unconscious a few times. Maybe they needed higher Constitution for higher hit points, but their build had some other higher priorities (e.g. choosing True Sight 60' as an epic boon, instead of +40 HP).

 

[lichmaster]

This is mostly a matter of how you envision the class and how it interacts with the world.

I personally don't see the monk/adept as a brute who takes a punch on the teeth and shows a bleeding grin afterwards, which is how I (partially) imagine large hit dice.
I see the monk/adept more as an extremely nimble fighter, focusing on speed, precision and technique, to the point of gaining some supernatural abilities like running on water, dodging bullets or punching through walls. In older editions monks gained very high damage resistance against normal weapons, which is IMO far cooler than just more hp.
Mechanically, on the defensive side they are more about damage avoidance/mitigation (high ac, large bonus to saves, condition immunities, etc) than grit (large hp).

The barbarian/berserker is the only class that uses the d12, because for those characters the fantasy is generally of a hulking brute fighting with only a weapon and wearing only a loincloth. No armor and not super high dex requires some other survival mechanism, and hp (and damage resistance) it was.

 

[Morrus]

Nah, Homebrew I can do, and have for like 30 years. I'm talking an official change to a d12 hit dice.

Well, while you are welcome to homebrew in any way you wish, there won't be an official change, because we don't agree with that. The adept is not intended to be a tank--that's the role of berserkers and (some) fighters. But it's your game, so I say just go for it!

 

[PauloR]

I agree the monk is not typically the hulkiest guy, but i think he deserves at least a d10. He certainly feels more "in your face" than a ranger (with a d10) or a cleric (d8)

 

[Erragar]

The bad thing about the arguments against this is that people forget that eventually AC doesn't matter. Your Nimble Fighter is getting hit more than 50% of the time, and they're going down. The monk is the only front-line class with a d8 hit dice. And yes, I realize the Rogue should be front-line, but they at least have more ranged options.

Then there's the Ranger... a normally rear-line combatant with a d10 hit dice? There is no justification for that. There is no way to say that the Ranger deserves that type of HD and the Adept/Monk does not.

The reason I've advocated for a d12 for them however is because of things I've seen real life Shaolin do. Bending legitimate spears with their necks, tanking bats to the crotch, etc. They were able to either harden their skin or ignore the pain, and this was in real life. Imagine what the same type of character in a fantasy world would be like. And it's not like these guys gave up any of their agility to do it. One minute they're bending spears with their adam's apple, the next they're doing the fastest wing chung you've ever seen.

And, remind me again the design choice of having the in your face punching flurry guy have the same HP as the dude who sold his soul for power and shoots laser beams from his eyes as their main form of attack? d8 it just too small, it's a bad artifact from 3rd edition D&D when WoTC is on record saying they didn't want to add the monk, and made it generally unplayable and no one wants to admit it.

 

[Tessarael]

It probably wouldn't be too imbalanced to change Adept from d8 to d10 HD, but their niche is more similar to Rogue with d8 HD, than Fighter/Herald/Marshal/Ranger with d10 HD. This comes down to what your DM and players in your campaign want.

If you feel your Adept is on the low side for HP, there are plenty of ways to fix this, for example: higher Constitution, the Hardy Adventurer feat, or Dwarf's Tough trait.

 

[moistachio]

A5e adepts include the option to wear light armor to focus on strength instead of dex, which I imagine means they're taking a lot more hits instead of dodging. I'm just about to try out a half-giant adept with the wrestler archetype from the witch book, and I guess I'll see if I need to make a case for larger HD.