D&D 5E Actively Evil PCs & a Pirate Sandbox?

[Inchoroi]

So, during last night's game, I got a special request--one that I should preface with the following. Generally, my players start out with the best intentions. Protect the innocent, save the damsel, etc. However...generally, it starts with gambling or opening a brothel or some such thing, and it, over the course of the game, drifts towards the entire party being mostly, if not completely, evil. I do not enforce nor punish such behavior; as long as they're acting as their characters would, I let them go at it, my setting be damned, or hocked for cheap booze, as the case may be.

The request, however, is something of a surprise: they actually want an evil game. And, more importantly, they want an evil game where its less about plot and storyline and more about the world--I actually have a request to roleplay camping at night on occasion. I wracked my brain all day trying to think of an adventure where the premise isn't the good guys defeat the bad guys, and I couldn't think of one, and so I am left with attempting to create my own campaign.

The question arises, then: How does one make a campaign where the player characters are expected--and, knowing my players, definitely will be--evil? What kind of situations would it be practicable to have the PCs interact with when the expectation is they probably wouldn't save that kingdom from destruction, but they might pick over the corpses later?

For reference, here's a slight paraphrase from the Starter Set we ran a while back:

Player One: "I'm going to go see Townmaster Wester."
Me: "Okay. You're in his office."
Player One: "I want the nothic to hang around inside the hideout, so I'm going to trick Wester into thinking the Red Brands are coming to get him, and take him to the Nothic, convincing him along the way that it's best to be blindfolded while going, since the notorious Glasstaff is much more powerful than believed, and may be able to see through the Townmaster's eyes."

--rolls a natural 20--

Me. "Well then. He believes you, and follows you out."
Player One: "I lead him to the Nothic, and tell the nothic that he can eat Wester if he stays around here to guard our new home."

--nothic eats--

It's extremely paraphrased, but that should give you an idea of the kind of thing my players tend to drift toward (as an aside, I also have never had luckier players than these; yes, I've made them use different dice, including my own, just to make sure; only one that seems to have bad luck is my wife, who's 20AC character dropped two or three times because of critical hits).

Going back to the setting and campaign, I was trying to think up an option, and I had an idea: what if they were pirates? Simple enough idea, but it would let them get the sandbox feel they want if they were literally sailing the high seas, killing people and taking their stuff. I decided that I wanted it as close to a true sandbox as possible; this leads me to two further questions:

1. How well will 5e handle said sandbox play in this format?
2. How does one make a sandbox?

My experience with sandbox table top games is nil (the closest is playing Skyrim, honestly). Thankfully, I've got time, since I have previous requests to do Pathfinder's Iron Gods before we get to this point (in the middle of Rise of the Runelords, too), but I have much work to do.

 

[Dragongrief]

I think the biggest questions you'll need your players to answer are:

1) What kind of evil are they? Are they merely selfish and willing to let others come to harm for profit? Are they Evil and planning to take over/destroy the world? Both would have very different game implications.

2) What do they want out of the game? Do they have any specific intentions for their evilness (relates to #1)?

As for your questions about sandbox, 5e handles it as well as it handles regular adventures. It is, potentially, more difficult on you as the DM, because there isn't any real script - they instigate a change, you react as the world. To make a sandbox, simply create enough information about the world that you feel comfortable with ad-libbing the rest, then press "go." Notes about people and their motivations replace the normal adventure notes.

Hopefully that helps some.

 

[MortalPlague]

You know, you seem to have a pretty good grasp of how your players play as evil characters. Many DMs, running this sort of thing for the first time, have a bit of a freak-out when they see their players perpetrating awful acts, so you have a leg up on that. Also, you have a good sense of improvisation and going with the flow, both of which are integral for an evil game.

With this sort of campaign, there are typically two issues; infighting in the party, and a lack of things to do. For the first, try and give the PCs some reason to work together. Whether they are all prisoners who escaped together, members of the same thieves' guild, or are all enslaved by the same evil wizard, if they have a good bond, there ought to be less issues of backstabbing.

For the second, remember that evil forces will fight anyone, including other evil forces. Evil characters are just as likely to end up in a scrap with some orcs or goblins, or plundering a tomb and dodging traps. Also, powerful good characters may try to stamp out evil, which gives you some fun handling crusading paladins and noble heroes. You can also have a lot of fun by putting an evil group in the same dungeon as a good group, and give them the opportunity to beat them to the loot through nefarious means. Maybe they push the good heroes into a deathtrap? Maybe they lure monsters in to devour them? Maybe they talk nice and betray them when they get the chance? There's plenty of opportunity for diabolical mischief.

As for the other questions, 5th Edition will handle this quite well since it's a pretty light system for improvisation. As for making a sandbox, there are a lot of great guides out there that I don't have a link handy for, but if you search ENWorld, you'll find a dozen threads really quickly with great resources.

 

[Sunseeker]

I think we need to address what sort of "evil" your characters are.

Are you characters more of a barbarian raiders sort of evil, where they kill people and steal stuff because that's pretty much what their culture does?

Are your players looking for a more "normal" campaign, but playing the opposite side? A monster campaign might be fitting.

Are your players looking for more of a true evil campaign where they are servants of a dark lord or dark lords themselves and going out conquering and enslaving people?

It really depends on your players, it sounds like your players are chaotic with evil tenancies. Pirates, barbarians, even the monsters themselves would likey work well for a campaign basis. it doesn't seem like they're looking for a lawful-evil style game.

 

[Inchoroi]

I think the biggest questions you'll need your players to answer are:

1) What kind of evil are they? Are they merely selfish and willing to let others come to harm for profit? Are they Evil and planning to take over/destroy the world? Both would have very different game implications.

2) What do they want out of the game? Do they have any specific intentions for their evilness (relates to #1)?

As for your questions about sandbox, 5e handles it as well as it handles regular adventures. It is, potentially, more difficult on you as the DM, because there isn't any real script - they instigate a change, you react as the world. To make a sandbox, simply create enough information about the world that you feel comfortable with ad-libbing the rest, then press "go." Notes about people and their motivations replace the normal adventure notes.

Hopefully that helps some.

From what I can tell, I'd believe that they're going further toward the former, rather than the world-conquering latter; except for my wife's character, who apparently wants to make a world-destroying superweapon; I've yet to determine if she's serious. Her first thought is to make an island into a giant steampunk spider-tank-thing to destroy everything (don't ask; I have no idea where she got it from; she's already decided the character is chaotic evil--basing the character off of a video of the character Jinx from League of Legends).

You know, you seem to have a pretty good grasp of how your players play as evil characters. Many DMs, running this sort of thing for the first time, have a bit of a freak-out when they see their players perpetrating awful acts, so you have a leg up on that. Also, you have a good sense of improvisation and going with the flow, both of which are integral for an evil game.

With this sort of campaign, there are typically two issues; infighting in the party, and a lack of things to do. For the first, try and give the PCs some reason to work together. Whether they are all prisoners who escaped together, members of the same thieves' guild, or are all enslaved by the same evil wizard, if they have a good bond, there ought to be less issues of backstabbing.

For the second, remember that evil forces will fight anyone, including other evil forces. Evil characters are just as likely to end up in a scrap with some orcs or goblins, or plundering a tomb and dodging traps. Also, powerful good characters may try to stamp out evil, which gives you some fun handling crusading paladins and noble heroes. You can also have a lot of fun by putting an evil group in the same dungeon as a good group, and give them the opportunity to beat them to the loot through nefarious means. Maybe they push the good heroes into a deathtrap? Maybe they lure monsters in to devour them? Maybe they talk nice and betray them when they get the chance? There's plenty of opportunity for diabolical mischief.

As for the other questions, 5th Edition will handle this quite well since it's a pretty light system for improvisation. As for making a sandbox, there are a lot of great guides out there that I don't have a link handy for, but if you search ENWorld, you'll find a dozen threads really quickly with great resources.

Cohesive party mechanics shouldn't be much of an issue; the idea is that they would want to be pirates, go to one of the Pirate Kings (there are seven in the world, as far as my notes go so far), and get told to go away until they have their own ship. So, they go steal one, which is where the game would start. Once they get to that point, they can join up with one of the Pirate Kings (haven't described them yet, but want to differentiate them enough that the choices will have consequences) and raid shipping for a ubiquitous "Empire", which would be a mix of the Spanish Inquisition-type religious insanity and typical 16th-17th century British imperialism, with a sprinkling of "stone the witches and shamans and warlocks and wizards, which actually exist in this world, unto death for messing with unnatural forces".

That is a good point about evil vs. evil, too. Rival pirates within the same gang, as well as another Pirate King moving in on your turf, and then the Empire getting angry at how good you are and hunting you down, especially if you've got "evil magic users" amongst you. After that...not sure what they would do. I have an idea about an undead king of a sunken kingdom that they mistakenly awaken at some point raising his undead legions from the bottom of the ocean to lay waste to cities, but that might be too....goody-two-shoes, and also feels like it violates the spirit of a sandbox in being too long an adventure to easily put into the world.

I suppose I can also add in various "side-missions" for the Pirate King, kill this person, steal this stuff, make sure this ship doesn't make port, etc. It'll be really odd to not have a set plot.

I think we need to address what sort of "evil" your characters are.


Are you characters more of a barbarian raiders sort of evil, where they kill people and steal stuff because that's pretty much what their culture does?


Are your players looking for a more "normal" campaign, but playing the opposite side? A monster campaign might be fitting.


Are your players looking for more of a true evil campaign where they are servants of a dark lord or dark lords themselves and going out conquering and enslaving people?


It really depends on your players, it sounds like your players are chaotic with evil tenancies. Pirates, barbarians, even the monsters themselves would likey work well for a campaign basis. it doesn't seem like they're looking for a lawful-evil style game.

I also get the impression that it's rather chaotic with evil tendencies, although I could be wrong. I will have to poll them tomorrow to see how they feel about it. I would not, however, be surprised if they want to go full-out Dark Lords, which might also be fun, but might not work with the Pirate theme I've got going so far.

 

[Sunseeker]

I also get the impression that it's rather chaotic with evil tendencies, although I could be wrong. I will have to poll them tomorrow to see how they feel about it. I would not, however, be surprised if they want to go full-out Dark Lords, which might also be fun, but might not work with the Pirate theme I've got going so far.

Well you could go Pirates of Dark Water. Evil Pirate Lords in a Waterworld-type setting. Kevin Coster sold separately.

 

[MortalPlague]

After that...not sure what they would do.

A good theme for a pirate game is the encroachment of law and order upon the seas. Armadas of ships, each with mages and soldiers begin to patrol the shipping lanes. Pirate hunters (a.k.a. colorful NPC foes) begin to hunt down the PCs. A military commander for a prominent nation swears to put an end to the lawlessness. The beauty of it is that your PCs could ignore these threats and move along elsewhere, meet them head-on, or come up with some sneaky plan to come at them sideways.

 

[Thyrwyn]

It sounds like you have a good start. I like the Pirate Kings idea.

Based on my experience building and running 4e Pirate campaign, I'd make the following suggestions:

1) Whether in the Caribbean or in the Pacific around Malaysia and Indonesia, the golden ages of Piracy shared several distinctive traits: an expanse of uncivilized, resource rich lands/islands, separated by sea from the consuming civilizations. These resources need to be rare or unobtainable in civilized lands (ie: sugar, cocoa, gold, tea...) and some group with money or power within those civilizations has to want those resources. It could be something as simple as land to colonize, or native populations to convert or enslave. What resources does the "Empire" want?

2) Have more than one "Empire". I would suggest at least three (ie: England, Spain, and France) with at least one or two minor countries (ie: the Dutch, Portugal) just for flavor. They all hate Piracy, but more pieces means more complications, and more opportunities for the Pirates to cause trouble, make and break deals, and generally be the opportunistic, gold-grubbing rogues we hope they'll be.

3) Indigenous peoples: several of them. Whether you use Yuan-ti hidden in the jungles, cannibalistic Wood-Elves, lost civilizations ruled by power-mad necromancers, ancient ruins, Sahaguin filled seas, or anything else that springs to mind - fill your wilderness with exotic dangers. This will give you an endless variety of adventures. The best part is, since this is a largely unexplored area, you don't actually have to put them on the map until you need them. Just have them in mind, and when the players find themselves taking shelter in a protected cove (seeking safety from a storm, other pirates, or the Empire), you have a surprise ready to go. This will keep your players engaged with the world.

The point to having all these competing factions is to give your players enough outside forces to worry about that they will need to rely on each other, and have fun doing it. The more Empires and power groups you have, the more treachery and double-dealing the NPCs will be capable of. The PCs should be allowed to build reliable alliances (unless the decide to antagonize everyone they meet), but beyond that, they should never know who they can truly trust. Pirate King A might prefer Empire Z, while Pirate King B is secretly an Agent for Empire Y.... They know that Pirate King C hates Empire Z, and would never betray them to that Empire, but would happily turn them in to Empire W if he gets the chance.

Lastly, you'll need some ship to ship combat rules.

 

[Shiroiken]

I would suggest (assuming you keep to the Realms), having them be pirates based out of Luskan. They would have a pirate lord they pay tribute to, but also get word of potential targets to hit. Luskan would provide a rough and tumble base of operations to RP in, and the sea would provide all sorts of potential to explore (which is what sandbox is mostly about). If they don't want to have a lord, they could be freebooters that have to worry about the law AND pirate lords of Luskan that don't like competition...

If you don't want to keep it in the Realms, it shouldn't be hard to design a pirate town (like Tortuga from Pirates of the Caribbean). Place some known islands and trade routes in the area (along with some unknown places that they could shipwreck or explore).

One thing to bear in mind: make sure the players are all in agreement on how to handle PvP. In a true evil game, the likelihood of betray is much higher, and they players have to all agree on how to handle it and accept it. Things to bear in mind:

* Players stealing from other PCs (including pocketing loot before it's split)
* Players indirectly opposing another PC (such as selling them out to an enemy)
* Players directly opposing another PC, short of violence
* Players actually killing other PCs

 

[Inchoroi]

It sounds like you have a good start. I like the Pirate Kings idea.

Based on my experience building and running 4e Pirate campaign, I'd make the following suggestions:

1) Whether in the Caribbean or in the Pacific around Malaysia and Indonesia, the golden ages of Piracy shared several distinctive traits: an expanse of uncivilized, resource rich lands/islands, separated by sea from the consuming civilizations. These resources need to be rare or unobtainable in civilized lands (ie: sugar, cocoa, gold, tea...) and some group with money or power within those civilizations has to want those resources. It could be something as simple as land to colonize, or native populations to convert or enslave. What resources does the "Empire" want?

2) Have more than one "Empire". I would suggest at least three (ie: England, Spain, and France) with at least one or two minor countries (ie: the Dutch, Portugal) just for flavor. They all hate Piracy, but more pieces means more complications, and more opportunities for the Pirates to cause trouble, make and break deals, and generally be the opportunistic, gold-grubbing rogues we hope they'll be.

3) Indigenous peoples: several of them. Whether you use Yuan-ti hidden in the jungles, cannibalistic Wood-Elves, lost civilizations ruled by power-mad necromancers, ancient ruins, Sahaguin filled seas, or anything else that springs to mind - fill your wilderness with exotic dangers. This will give you an endless variety of adventures. The best part is, since this is a largely unexplored area, you don't actually have to put them on the map until you need them. Just have them in mind, and when the players find themselves taking shelter in a protected cove (seeking safety from a storm, other pirates, or the Empire), you have a surprise ready to go. This will keep your players engaged with the world.

The point to having all these competing factions is to give your players enough outside forces to worry about that they will need to rely on each other, and have fun doing it. The more Empires and power groups you have, the more treachery and double-dealing the NPCs will be capable of. The PCs should be allowed to build reliable alliances (unless the decide to antagonize everyone they meet), but beyond that, they should never know who they can truly trust. Pirate King A might prefer Empire Z, while Pirate King B is secretly an Agent for Empire Y.... They know that Pirate King C hates Empire Z, and would never betray them to that Empire, but would happily turn them in to Empire W if he gets the chance.

Lastly, you'll need some ship to ship combat rules.

Its a shame I can only give XP for this post once.

Hadn't gotten as far as islands, yet, but you raise several good points, especially about Malaysia and Indonesia; I was wondering how I would go about drawing a map for this sort of thing with enough islands to actually be useful, and taking that area of the world would be a good starting point.

The "Empire", I think, is there for two reasons; 1. Conversion to their religion, and 2. said resources. The resources, though, I am unsure of at the moment, but I'm wondering if I can't take a page from Glen Cook's novels, and have them search for mithril (magic silver), which has only been found in limited quantities within the Empire, and recently (a couple hundred years ago) mithril was discovered when these islands were 'discovered' from the indigenous peoples. This also lets me clone a sort of "El Dorado" feel, as another quest/adventure in the sandbox, letting them find the map at one point or another, preferably randomly (my table and I are big fans of randomness in the sense that most of the world is apparently random, even though it really isn't).

Honestly, the idea of a sandbox came from working on one of my player's characters, a Barbarian, and I realized that with his HP, it would be possible--unlikely, but possible--for him to survive being hit head on by meteor swarm head on.

Expanding on the Empires a bit, having more than one is probably going to be a really good idea, too; spain and england are kind of smushed together at this point, but a france-clone would work. Sorry to say, my family is from the Netherlands, but I'm not 100% sure of its history during that era, save that they indulged in the slave trade (and nothing at all about Portugal during that time in history). Having each empire or 'advanced' civilization competing over the same resources, continually exploring the islands and larger lands in the area for mithril.

I also, capitalizing on the whole religion-stone-the-witch thing, wanted to include magic schools, in the sense of a bunch of magic using peoples got together for mutual protection from the churchs, priests, and paladins that wanted to kill them all (magic is solely the province of God and his priests, etc, etc). The Schools want mithril as well, obviously, and so have missions there, recruiting magic users from various locations among the islands; they also would be the main source of magic items for most of the populace, since, you know, Magic Is Bad according to this guy's religion. This idea led to the appropriation of another thread's idea, that of magic item industrial espionage (which I can't seem to locate now), as another fun way to make money