ability tomes + wish?

[Shadeus]

One of my characters just recently got a hold of manual of gainful exercise +1 and a scroll of wish. Being a fighter, I had thought that scroll little more than toilet paper. But I was wondering, if I read the book to get my strength up by 1, and then immediately followed it by a wish to increase my strength again, would that work as if two wishes were cast in a row? (So would it be a cumulative +2 inherit bonus to Str.)

Of course I'd have to cash in some favors to get someone to read that scroll, but that's fine. I guess I'm asking is the manual equivalent to having cast a Wish to gain Str enough so that a Wish spell would have the bonuses stack.

 

[Crothian]

You need three wished to get +2. One wish for the +1, and then two wishes for the second +1. So, the answer is no. save the wish and use it when things are dire. That's the power of the wish, not changing things on the character sheet.

 

[Vhane]

I believe they wouldnt work in this fashion. The tome doesn't give a "wish" it gives an inherent bonus, it just requires wish to enchant. The scroll also would give an inherent bonus also of +1, like bonuses dont stack.

BUT if you wished the book to provide a +2 bonus, you might get away with it. "I wish this here book was twice as good for me."

 

[bret]

It doesn't work because it takes a long time to gain the benefit from the book.

The rule for wishes are they have to be cast in immediate succession. With two wishes cast one after the other, you could get a +2 bonus to the same attribute.

The manuals/tomes are basically prepackaged ability boosts. You don't need to be able to read and use a scroll, but you also can't use them for anything other than the exact purpose of that item.

Since it takes days to gain the ability boost from the tome, there is no way you could read the whole tome and then the scroll. The items just don't work together that way.


On the other hand, if you can find a wizard that hasn't got the Wish spell yet they may trade the scroll for a single wish. I would suggest you be very careful about finding someone to sell it to though, you definately need someone trustworthy.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

You need three wished to get +2. One wish for the +1, and then two wishes for the second +1. So, the answer is no. save the wish and use it when things are dire. That's the power of the wish, not changing things on the character sheet.

Huh? - how in the world do you come up with that.

If you could get the wish cast at the exact moment the magic "disappeared" from the manual - you COULD get the +2, but that may very well be a tall order.

 

[kreynolds]

BUT if you wished the book to provide a +2 bonus, you might get away with it. "I wish this here book was twice as good for me."

Unfortunately, I believe "upgrading" the tome would break the gold piece value limitations of wish.

 

[phillipjp]

Unfortunately, I believe "upgrading" the tome would break the gold piece value limitations of wish.

Not necessarily. The bottom of the wish description says:

The character may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives the opportunity to fulfill the character's request without fulfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert the character's intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

As a DM, I'd allow a carefully worded wish to double the inherent bonus of a tome. Of course, he has to get a trustworthy wizard to cast the spell for him. I'd roleplay that VERY carefully.

"Ok, uhm, I'll pay you 1500gp to cast the spell on this scroll and say the words I've written on this piece of paper. Now, promise you'll say the works EXACTLY, ok Mr. Wizard?"

 

[kreynolds]

As a DM, I'd allow a carefully worded wish to double the inherent bonus of a tome. Of course, he has to get a trustworthy wizard to cast the spell for him. I'd roleplay that VERY carefully.

"Ok, uhm, I'll pay you 1500gp to cast the spell on this scroll and say the words I've written on this piece of paper. Now, promise you'll say the works EXACTLY, ok Mr. Wizard?"

That's a DM judgement call that is required of the wish spell, so I don't have a problem with you making that decision, though there's no way in hell I would allow it. You wanna better tome? Find one or buy one.

There are 2 tremendous limitations to the wish spell that directly relate to this particular situation:

1) Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. (One bonus per casting, if anyone argues this, I'll puke)
2) Create a valuable item, even a magic item, of up to 15,000 gp in value. (Take note of the part about 15,000 GP, as this is kind of important.)

Now, if you use a wish spell to upgrade a +1 manual of gainful exercise to a +2 manual of gainful exercise, the upgrade to the tome all by itself costs 27,500 gp. Now, unless my math is messed up, 27,500 gp is just a teency weency bit higher than 15,000 gp.

So, my point is this:
1) A +1 manual of gainful exercise costs 27,500 gp
2) A +2 manual of gainful exercise costs 55,000 gp
3) The difference in cost between the two manuals is 27,500 gp, which is exactly half the cost of a +2 manual of gainful exercise, and exactly twice the cost of a +1 manual of gainful extercise.
4) The wish spell is limited to creating a magic item of up to 15,000 gp.

At some point, you need to draw the line with Wish. This, is where I draw the line.

 

[Nathan]

That's a DM judgement call that is required of the wish spell, so I don't have a problem with you making that decision, though there's no way in hell I would allow it. You wanna better tome? Find one or buy one.

There are 2 tremendous limitations to the wish spell that directly relate to this particular situation:

1) Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. (One bonus per casting, if anyone argues this, I'll puke)
2) Create a valuable item, even a magic item, of up to 15,000 gp in value. (Take note of the part about 15,000 GP, as this is kind of important.)

Now, if you use a wish spell to upgrade a +1 manual of gainful exercise to a +2 manual of gainful exercise, the upgrade to the tome all by itself costs 27,500 gp. Now, unless my math is messed up, 27,500 gp is just a teency weency bit higher than 15,000 gp.

So, my point is this:
1) A +1 manual of gainful exercise costs 27,500 gp
2) A +2 manual of gainful exercise costs 55,000 gp
3) The difference in cost between the two manuals is 27,500 gp, which is exactly half the cost of a +2 manual of gainful exercise, and exactly twice the cost of a +1 manual of gainful extercise.
4) The wish spell is limited to creating a magic item of up to 15,000 gp.

At some point, you need to draw the line with Wish. This, is where I draw the line.

The high market prices of the manuals are due to the XP cost occuring due to the wish spells which are needed when creating the manuals.

But the scroll of wish with which the upgrade should be done has also a 5000 XP cost inherent.

Therefore, I do not think that one has to judge the way kreynolds did.

By the way, I think there is one method which definitely is along the rules: Find a wizard with the Wondrous Item Creation feat a let him use the scroll to upgrade the manual (which is a wondrous item). That would cost only a little bit and should work e.g. like adding further powers to a magical weapon by means of the Craft Magic Arms and Armors feat.

 

[kreynolds]

The high market prices of the manuals are due to the XP cost occuring due to the wish spells which are needed when creating the manuals.

But the scroll of wish with which the upgrade should be done has also a 5000 XP cost inherent.

Bubba? When you buy a scroll of wish, what do you pay? The creation cost or the market price? Nuff said.