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5E: Alternate Takes on Official Fifth Edition Monsters
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<blockquote data-quote="Cleon" data-source="post: 8872098" data-attributes="member: 57383"><p>I was watching a YouTube Series of Tabletop 5th Edition Play and one of the PCs cast <a href="https://www.5esrd.com/database/spell/animate-objects" target="_blank"><em>animate objects</em></a> for the first time (they'd just leveled up and gained the spell).</p><p></p><p>So two Large animated objects and a Medium one appeared to attack their enemy, only to be hit by a charm effect which knocked out the Medium and one Large. The DM pointed out that was what the Rules said, since the spell description does not give the constructs it produced any immunities.</p><p></p><p>While technically correct (the best kind of correct) that doesn't seem right at all!</p><p></p><p>The Animated Objects in the Monster Manual have the Immunities to Damage (poison, psychic) and Conditions (blinded, charmed, deafened, frightened, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned) you'd expect for a construct, but the creatures created by <em>animate objects</em> don't use their stats. For example, a <strong><a href="https://www.5esrd.com/database/creature/animated-object-flying-sword" target="_blank">Flying Sword</a></strong> has different stats to the Small Object an <em>animate objects</em> spell can create.</p><p></p><p>Then I looked at the spell description and it became even worse!</p><p></p><p>A default <em>animate objects</em> spell transforms up to ten non-magical objects into creatures. It can cause ten Tiny or Small targets to come to life, but a Medium target counts as two objects, a Large target is four and a Huge is eight.</p><p></p><p>But just look at these objects' stats:</p><p></p><p><strong>Table: Animated Object Statistics</strong></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>Size</th><th>HP</th><th>AC</th><th>Attack</th><th>Str</th><th>Dex</th></tr><tr><td>Tiny</td><td>20</td><td>18</td><td>+8 to hit, 1d4 + 4 damage</td><td>4</td><td>18</td></tr><tr><td>Small</td><td>25</td><td>16</td><td>+6 to hit, 1d8 + 2 damage</td><td>6</td><td>14</td></tr><tr><td>Medium</td><td>40</td><td>13</td><td>+5 to hit, 2d6 + 1 damage</td><td>10</td><td>12</td></tr><tr><td>Large</td><td>50</td><td>10</td><td>+6 to hit, 2d10 + 2 damage</td><td>14</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td>Huge</td><td>80</td><td>10</td><td>+8 to hit, 2d12 + 4 damage</td><td>18</td><td>6</td></tr></table><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">An animated object is a construct with AC, hit points, attacks, Strength, and Dexterity determined by its size. Its Constitution is 10 and its Intelligence and Wisdom are 3, and its Charisma is 1. Its speed is 30 feet; if the object lacks legs or other appendages it can use for locomotion, it instead has a flying speed of 30 feet and can hover. If the object is securely attached to a surface or a larger object, such as a chain bolted to a wall, its speed is 0. It has blindsight with a radius of 30 feet and is blind beyond that distance. When the animated object drops to 0 hit points, it reverts to its original object form, and any remaining damage carries over to its original object form.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">If you command an object to attack, it can make a single melee attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. It makes a slam attack with an attack bonus and bludgeoning damage determined by its size.</p><p></p><p>Notice the problem?</p><p></p><p>It'll become clear if you feed the above numbers into the <strong><a href="https://5e.tools/crcalculator.html" target="_blank">CR Calculator</a></strong>:</p><p></p><p><strong>Table: Animated Object CR Calculator Results</strong></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>Size</th><th>Challenge<br /> Rating</th><th>Off.<br /> CR</th><th>Def.<br /> CR</th><th>Prof.<br /> Bonus</th><th>Effective<br /> HP (HD)</th><th>Armor<br /> Class</th><th>Eff.<br /> AC</th><th>Average Damage<br /> Per Round</th><th>Effective<br /> Attack Bonus</th></tr><tr><td>Tiny</td><td>2 (450 XP)</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>+2</td><td>20 (8d4)</td><td>18 (14 +4 DEX)</td><td>20</td><td>6 (1d4 +4 DEX)</td><td>+8 (+4 DEX +2 PB +2??)</td></tr><tr><td>Small</td><td>1 (200 XP)</td><td>1</td><td>1/2</td><td>+2</td><td>25 (7d6+1)</td><td>16 (14 +2 DEX)</td><td>18</td><td>6 (1d8 +2 DEX)</td><td>+6 (+2 DEX +2 PB +2??)</td></tr><tr><td>Medium</td><td>1 (200 XP)</td><td>1</td><td>1/2</td><td>+2</td><td>40 (9d8)</td><td>13 (12 +1 DEX)</td><td>15</td><td>8 (2d6 +1 DEX)</td><td>+5 (+4 DEX +2 PB +2??)</td></tr><tr><td>Large</td><td>1 (200 XP)</td><td>2</td><td>1/2</td><td>+2</td><td>50 (9d10+1)</td><td>10 (10 +0 DEX)</td><td>12</td><td>13 (2d10 +2 STR)</td><td>+6 (+2 STR +2 PB +2??)</td></tr><tr><td>Huge</td><td>3 (700 XP)</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>+2</td><td>80 (12d12+2)</td><td>10 (12 –2 DEX)</td><td>12</td><td>17 (2d12 +4 STR)</td><td>+8 (+4 STR +2 PB +2??)</td></tr></table><p></p><p>Look at the projected CR of the objects. The Tiny Object has a higher Challenge than the Small to Large ones due to its unusually, I would say <em>inappropriately</em>, high AC and Attack Bonus. Also, the number of created objects halves for each size above small. but most of them are the same CR, so instead of four CR 1 Small constructs you can have one CR 1 Large construct for a lot less combat effectiveness.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: red"><strong>EDIT—</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: red">Dang it. Just noticed that I'd left "Save Proficiences 3-4" in the CR Calculator from a previous monster which adds +2 to effective AC and makes the above Challenge columns wrong.</span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red">They should be:</span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"><strong>Table: Animated Object CR Calculator Results</strong></span></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th><span style="color: red">Size</span></th><th><span style="color: red">Challenge<br /> Rating</span></th><th><span style="color: red">Off.<br /> CR</span></th><th><span style="color: red">Def.<br /> CR</span></th><th><span style="color: red">Eff.<br /> AC</span></th></tr><tr><td><span style="color: red">Tiny</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1 (200 XP)</span></td><td><span style="color: red">2</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1/2</span></td><td><span style="color: red">18</span></td></tr><tr><td><span style="color: red">Small</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1 (200 XP)</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1/4</span></td><td><span style="color: red">16</span></td></tr><tr><td><span style="color: red">Medium</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1 (200 XP)</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1/4</span></td><td><span style="color: red">13</span></td></tr><tr><td><span style="color: red">Large</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1 (200 XP)</span></td><td><span style="color: red">2</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1/4</span></td><td><span style="color: red">10</span></td></tr><tr><td><span style="color: red">Huge</span></td><td><span style="color: red">2 (450 XP)</span></td><td><span style="color: red">4</span></td><td><span style="color: red">1/2</span></td><td><span style="color: red">10</span></td></tr></table><p></p><p><span style="color: red">The overall principle that the Tiny ones are way too strong still holds and the following Game Theorizing holds.</span></p><p><span style="color: red"><strong>—ENDEDIT</strong></span></p><p></p><p>Let's run a little game theory comparing one Huge Object to the eight Tiny Objects you can animate in its place.</p><p></p><p>The Tiny Objects have a total of 160 hit points to the Huge Object's 80, so that's 200% as much.</p><p></p><p>An opponent who hits the Tiny Object's AC 18 50% the time (i.e. one with +7 to hit) would hit the Huge Object's AC 10 90% of the time. Allowing for double damage on a natural 20 (which counts as an extra 5%), that means their DPR against a Tiny will be 55/95 as much as against a Huge.</p><p></p><p>Both Tiny and Huge have a +8 to hit so there's equal odds of doing damage. Eight Tiny Objects have a DPR of 52 to a single Huge Objects DPR of 17.</p><p></p><p>However, as combat proceeds the number of Tiny Objects in the battle will slowly diminish. First eight, then seven, six, five, four, three, two and finally one. Assuming the rate of loss is even, then the effectiveness or eight combatants with a total of 52 DPR vs one combatant with the same DPR is 36/64 or 56.25%. (The maths is pretty easy: 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8 divided by eight 8 for the equivalent single combatant).</p><p></p><p>So multiply all those ratios together: 160/80 hp times 95/55 AC times 52/17 damage times 36/64 "whittling down the numbers" and we get a ratio of 5.94 to 1. So those eight Tiny Objects could theoretically inflict roughly <strong><em>six times as much damage</em></strong> over their combat lifetime than one Huge Object.</p><p></p><p>The ratio won't be <em>quite</em> so bad against opponents with a higher to hit number, but even in ideal circumstances (100% to hit against both sizes) the ratio is still 3.44 to 1, or over three times as much damage.</p><p></p><p>Now the main problem with the model is it assumes ALL the Tiny Objects can attack at the same time. If only one or two can target the enemy in a round, the DPR drops proportionally. However, any bottleneck that's barely large enough for a couple of Tiny creatures to squeeze through would surely be too small for a Huge creature, so wouldn't the Huge Object be completely unable to attack and be at the mercy of ranged weapons?</p><p></p><p>Anyhow, I conclude the spell and animated object stats need rewriting to be a bit more balanced.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cleon, post: 8872098, member: 57383"] I was watching a YouTube Series of Tabletop 5th Edition Play and one of the PCs cast [URL='https://www.5esrd.com/database/spell/animate-objects'][I]animate objects[/I][/URL] for the first time (they'd just leveled up and gained the spell). So two Large animated objects and a Medium one appeared to attack their enemy, only to be hit by a charm effect which knocked out the Medium and one Large. The DM pointed out that was what the Rules said, since the spell description does not give the constructs it produced any immunities. While technically correct (the best kind of correct) that doesn't seem right at all! The Animated Objects in the Monster Manual have the Immunities to Damage (poison, psychic) and Conditions (blinded, charmed, deafened, frightened, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned) you'd expect for a construct, but the creatures created by [I]animate objects[/I] don't use their stats. For example, a [B][URL='https://www.5esrd.com/database/creature/animated-object-flying-sword']Flying Sword[/URL][/B] has different stats to the Small Object an [I]animate objects[/I] spell can create. Then I looked at the spell description and it became even worse! A default [I]animate objects[/I] spell transforms up to ten non-magical objects into creatures. It can cause ten Tiny or Small targets to come to life, but a Medium target counts as two objects, a Large target is four and a Huge is eight. But just look at these objects' stats: [B]Table: Animated Object Statistics[/B] [TABLE] [TR] [TH]Size[/TH] [TH]HP[/TH] [TH]AC[/TH] [TH]Attack[/TH] [TH]Str[/TH] [TH]Dex[/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Tiny[/TD] [TD]20[/TD] [TD]18[/TD] [TD]+8 to hit, 1d4 + 4 damage[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]18[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Small[/TD] [TD]25[/TD] [TD]16[/TD] [TD]+6 to hit, 1d8 + 2 damage[/TD] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]14[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Medium[/TD] [TD]40[/TD] [TD]13[/TD] [TD]+5 to hit, 2d6 + 1 damage[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Large[/TD] [TD]50[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]+6 to hit, 2d10 + 2 damage[/TD] [TD]14[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Huge[/TD] [TD]80[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]+8 to hit, 2d12 + 4 damage[/TD] [TD]18[/TD] [TD]6[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [INDENT]An animated object is a construct with AC, hit points, attacks, Strength, and Dexterity determined by its size. Its Constitution is 10 and its Intelligence and Wisdom are 3, and its Charisma is 1. Its speed is 30 feet; if the object lacks legs or other appendages it can use for locomotion, it instead has a flying speed of 30 feet and can hover. If the object is securely attached to a surface or a larger object, such as a chain bolted to a wall, its speed is 0. It has blindsight with a radius of 30 feet and is blind beyond that distance. When the animated object drops to 0 hit points, it reverts to its original object form, and any remaining damage carries over to its original object form.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]If you command an object to attack, it can make a single melee attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. It makes a slam attack with an attack bonus and bludgeoning damage determined by its size.[/INDENT] Notice the problem? It'll become clear if you feed the above numbers into the [B][URL='https://5e.tools/crcalculator.html']CR Calculator[/URL][/B]: [B]Table: Animated Object CR Calculator Results[/B] [TABLE] [TR] [TH]Size[/TH] [TH]Challenge Rating[/TH] [TH]Off. CR[/TH] [TH]Def. CR[/TH] [TH]Prof. Bonus[/TH] [TH]Effective HP (HD)[/TH] [TH]Armor Class[/TH] [TH]Eff. AC[/TH] [TH]Average Damage Per Round[/TH] [TH]Effective Attack Bonus[/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Tiny[/TD] [TD]2 (450 XP)[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]20 (8d4)[/TD] [TD]18 (14 +4 DEX)[/TD] [TD]20[/TD] [TD]6 (1d4 +4 DEX)[/TD] [TD]+8 (+4 DEX +2 PB +2??)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Small[/TD] [TD]1 (200 XP)[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]1/2[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]25 (7d6+1)[/TD] [TD]16 (14 +2 DEX)[/TD] [TD]18[/TD] [TD]6 (1d8 +2 DEX)[/TD] [TD]+6 (+2 DEX +2 PB +2??)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Medium[/TD] [TD]1 (200 XP)[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]1/2[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]40 (9d8)[/TD] [TD]13 (12 +1 DEX)[/TD] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]8 (2d6 +1 DEX)[/TD] [TD]+5 (+4 DEX +2 PB +2??)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Large[/TD] [TD]1 (200 XP)[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]1/2[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]50 (9d10+1)[/TD] [TD]10 (10 +0 DEX)[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]13 (2d10 +2 STR)[/TD] [TD]+6 (+2 STR +2 PB +2??)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Huge[/TD] [TD]3 (700 XP)[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]80 (12d12+2)[/TD] [TD]10 (12 –2 DEX)[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]17 (2d12 +4 STR)[/TD] [TD]+8 (+4 STR +2 PB +2??)[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Look at the projected CR of the objects. The Tiny Object has a higher Challenge than the Small to Large ones due to its unusually, I would say [I]inappropriately[/I], high AC and Attack Bonus. Also, the number of created objects halves for each size above small. but most of them are the same CR, so instead of four CR 1 Small constructs you can have one CR 1 Large construct for a lot less combat effectiveness. [COLOR=red][B]EDIT—[/B] Dang it. Just noticed that I'd left "Save Proficiences 3-4" in the CR Calculator from a previous monster which adds +2 to effective AC and makes the above Challenge columns wrong. They should be: [B]Table: Animated Object CR Calculator Results[/B][/COLOR] [TABLE] [TR] [TH][COLOR=red]Size[/COLOR][/TH] [TH][COLOR=red]Challenge Rating[/COLOR][/TH] [TH][COLOR=red]Off. CR[/COLOR][/TH] [TH][COLOR=red]Def. CR[/COLOR][/TH] [TH][COLOR=red]Eff. AC[/COLOR][/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD][COLOR=red]Tiny[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1 (200 XP)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]2[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1/2[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]18[/COLOR][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][COLOR=red]Small[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1 (200 XP)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1/4[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]16[/COLOR][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][COLOR=red]Medium[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1 (200 XP)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1/4[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]13[/COLOR][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][COLOR=red]Large[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1 (200 XP)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]2[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1/4[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]10[/COLOR][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][COLOR=red]Huge[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]2 (450 XP)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]4[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]1/2[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=red]10[/COLOR][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [COLOR=red]The overall principle that the Tiny ones are way too strong still holds and the following Game Theorizing holds. [B]—ENDEDIT[/B][/COLOR] Let's run a little game theory comparing one Huge Object to the eight Tiny Objects you can animate in its place. The Tiny Objects have a total of 160 hit points to the Huge Object's 80, so that's 200% as much. An opponent who hits the Tiny Object's AC 18 50% the time (i.e. one with +7 to hit) would hit the Huge Object's AC 10 90% of the time. Allowing for double damage on a natural 20 (which counts as an extra 5%), that means their DPR against a Tiny will be 55/95 as much as against a Huge. Both Tiny and Huge have a +8 to hit so there's equal odds of doing damage. Eight Tiny Objects have a DPR of 52 to a single Huge Objects DPR of 17. However, as combat proceeds the number of Tiny Objects in the battle will slowly diminish. First eight, then seven, six, five, four, three, two and finally one. Assuming the rate of loss is even, then the effectiveness or eight combatants with a total of 52 DPR vs one combatant with the same DPR is 36/64 or 56.25%. (The maths is pretty easy: 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8 divided by eight 8 for the equivalent single combatant). So multiply all those ratios together: 160/80 hp times 95/55 AC times 52/17 damage times 36/64 "whittling down the numbers" and we get a ratio of 5.94 to 1. So those eight Tiny Objects could theoretically inflict roughly [B][I]six times as much damage[/I][/B] over their combat lifetime than one Huge Object. The ratio won't be [I]quite[/I] so bad against opponents with a higher to hit number, but even in ideal circumstances (100% to hit against both sizes) the ratio is still 3.44 to 1, or over three times as much damage. Now the main problem with the model is it assumes ALL the Tiny Objects can attack at the same time. If only one or two can target the enemy in a round, the DPR drops proportionally. However, any bottleneck that's barely large enough for a couple of Tiny creatures to squeeze through would surely be too small for a Huge creature, so wouldn't the Huge Object be completely unable to attack and be at the mercy of ranged weapons? Anyhow, I conclude the spell and animated object stats need rewriting to be a bit more balanced. [/QUOTE]
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