5-foot step

[Altissimus]

Hey folks,

The 5-foot step rule seems to me to have a couple of inconsistencies and also room for exploit. I am curious as to what other DMs and Players have experienced/implemented regarding this rule.

Exploits - for example:

It is possible to take a 5-foot step away without provoking an AoO from a mob in base-to-base combat in order to, say, cast a spell/fire a ranged weapon also without provoking an AoO. This seems to me to be highly unlikely...if I'd just run up to you in the street and bopped you on the nose, you couldn't step 5 feet away and start waving your arms around and chanting without me stepping in 5 feet myself and bopping you again, could you?

Inconsistencies - for example:

Why is a colossal spider with a base move of 60 feet and legs the length of the Eiffel Tower limited to 5 feet for a 5-feet step? It could manage that by stretching out its big toe! (If it had a big toe)

To address the above two points in my campaign, I have a) disallowed the use of a 5-foot step in the above exploit scenario unless and only if the mob in question has already used a 5-foot step that round, and b) changed a "5-foot step" to a "1/6th of your base speed step".

Has anyone else come across difficulties with this? Made any changes? Experienced any changes? Found anything else that works for them?

Interested in any thoughts folks have on this.

Many thanks,

A.

 

[Dandu]

It is possible to take a 5-foot step away without provoking an AoO from a mob in base-to-base combat in order to, say, cast a spell/fire a ranged weapon also without provoking an AoO. This seems to me to be highly unlikely...if I'd just run up to you in the street and bopped you on the nose, you couldn't step 5 feet away and start waving your arms around and chanting without me stepping in 5 feet myself and bopping you again, could you?

Yes I could.

 

[krupintupple]

i've always envisioned the 5-foot step as one of those feints or slight dashes that people do in the movies when they're having a sword fight, Pirates of the Caribbean style. it's basically just a slight dodge backward, giving you an ounce of breathing room, at the expense of any other movement that round. consider it a well-timed and ambitious dodge.

also, keep in mind that in 3e, spells are standard actions, and considering that a combat round is 6 seconds, we can assume that standard and movement actions each take roughly 3 seconds. so you're asking, is it possible while you're swinging wildly at me, in a bar-fight lets say, for me to carefully time a single "educated" dash to the side, away from your fist, and then recite a 2 to 3 second gibberish poem. i'd say that yes, it is entirely possible. furthermore, if the spell had V, S and M components, it could literally be a 1.5 second gibberish poem, followed with 1.5 seconds of my throwing gang-signs in the air and ensuring that i've got a poppy seed (M) somewhere on my person, for example.

ie: let's say that we're in a bar and you decide to punch me in the face, is it plausible that, i could defensively leap back, say "Fun Mississippi!" while making the "shocker" hand-symbol with both hands, thusly teleporting me safely to my castle? i'd say probably, especially if i've devoted a large amount of time figuring out how to immediately flash my hand signals, or keep proper phraseology especially under stress - this means that i've successfully taken a lot of ranks in concentration, and have made my cast defensive check.

another thing to consider is that most "levelled" PCs are far superior to the average dock-hand or mine rowdy. you have to realize that, professional warriors and boxers are trained to leap up and smash someone in the face with their weapons or fists, but likewise, professional mages have probably spent an equal amount of time learning how to avoid such hits, or "gesticulate" (somatic cast) in ways that are equally defensive, giving opponents less and less areas for attacks. think of it as the melee/caster arms race, if that helps.

 

[Altissimus]

...especially if i've devoted a large amount of time figuring out how to immediately flash my hand signals, or keep proper phraseology especially under stress - this means that i've successfully taken a lot of ranks in concentration, and have made my cast defensive check.

Well, quite. This is hardly difficult for any caster who has max'd concentration, especially with Combat Casting, and makes the need for a 5-foot step in the first place completely redundant.

I get your point on nicely-timed dashes, but I doubt you'd buy one second, let alone three.

Thanks for the response.

A.

 

[krupintupple]

I get your point on nicely-timed dashes, but I doubt you'd buy one second, let alone three.

i realize that probably would only happen in the best of circumstances, but we need to keep in mind it's basically an entirely abstract system that was meant for computing some fairly unrealistic things. i mean, if you really want to split hairs, anyone hit directly by a fireball should die horribly, no save, because how many people in recent wars have successfully caught a tomahawk missile with their teeth and realistically expected their charred remains to stay within one time-zone.

i tend think you could definitely buy time with dashes, but then again, it all depends upon perspective, or suspension of disbelief. i would suppose that if we asked an Olympic level fencer or Medieval war re-creationist, they'd have all manner of insights and tales about "buying" time when the opponent overswings his blade, deflecting theory based upon blade material, vibration-minimizing gripping techniques, or capitalizing upon a poor veer or arc of the weapon, etc.

we'd all like to assume that any burly dude could heft a great-axe and swing it around easily, but really, without skill, training and experience with the ins and outs of the weapon, you're going to look like an overzealous (and drunk) football fan who's waving around a stop-sign, instead of a deadly expert with parries, cutting blows, and crushing chops. i'd like to think that classed PCs of all types know this, and developed their own manner of dealing with it.

it could go on forever, but for all intents and purposes of the game we all play, we just have to assume that "the wizard knows how to cast when he's in trouble" and accept it. likewise, we could imagine that the mage-slayer line of feats represent a footnote to the above claim, adding "however, should the fighter have this feat, the wizard is no longer able to cast when he's in trouble."

 

[radmod]

Yes, the five foot step is unrealistic (ignore Dandu).

D&D is not designed to be realistic but is designed along game mechanics for playability. The five foot step is simply a gaming maneuver and as such is not supposed to be realistic.
For example, standard initiative is incredibly unrealistic*, yet is designed for game playability. (Why I use simultaneous initiative.)

#2) Many DMs (including me) I've seen house rule the five foot step on creature size. A Huge(tall) gets a 10 ft. step and I've even seen a 15 ft. step for Gargantuan.


* In a supposed six second round, Player A charges 60 ft. (which takes six seconds) to hit Player B who then charges 60 ft. (another six seconds) to hit Player C, who then charges ...

 

[Theroc]

Olympic fencing tends to be decided with a single blow which is too quick for an untrained eye to see. Unless the spellcaster is assumed to have martial training to avoid such a speedy thrust, one could assume that isn't possible. However, that's where the AoO for moving/casting comes in. The 5'step... was addressing somewhere I believe with a feat that let you 5'step follow someone if they attempted the aforementioned tactic.

That said, couldn't the wizard just turn into a dragon and eat you?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Spellcasters in AD&D 2nd ed and earlier had to deal with having their spellcasting disrupted. I believe the 5-foot-step to avoid disruption was brought in because so many players of spellcasters really hated their spells being disrupted. It was very unfun. 5-foot-step to avoid brought back the fun in playing spellcasters so to speak. It makes being a squishy spellcaster less dangerous.

It also makes spellcasters seriously stronger than prior editions because they are getting their spells off with far greater ease.

 

[the Jester]

Expanding the size of a creature's "step" is a HUGE advantage for creatures with reach, practically an auto-win against wizardy types if you have the right feats once melee is reached.

I did this early in 3e and reversed it in short order, feeling that it was far too large of an advantage.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The bigger issue is the initiative structure-taking turns. The AoO rule compensates for that by allowing people to act out of turn, which in the real world would not be necessary, because people do not take six-second turns. The 5 ft. step rule is a reasonable way of adjudicating movement, but is very generous and can easily be "abused" to negate AoO's and perform other tactical maneuvers. Is this balanced in the game? Maybe. Does it make sense? Not really.

If you use the combat reactions system from Trailblazer, I might suggest an out-of-turn 5 ft. step as a new combat reaction. This would allow high-level characters or those with Combat Reflexes to negate the above tactic.