4th level evocation spells kind of blah?

[Davelozzi]

One of my players is an evoker (invoker? -- whichever they're called now) who just reached 7th level. This is the first level that he gets access to 4th level spells and he & I both thought that the selection of 4th level spells seemed a bit weak, to some degree across all the schools, but particularly for evocation, especially in comparison to 3rd level spells like Fireball or even Lightning Bolt.

For example, how is Ice Storm supposed to be better than Fireball? If I remember correctly, back in 2e if was still barely better, but at least it did equal damage in a large area of effect. Now it does less damage in the same area. It's a slight benefit that the damage is split between two types (3d6 bludgeoning/2d6 cold), in case the enemy has energy resistance, but that doesn't seem like enough to make up for its shortcomings, in my opinion.

So I'm inviting both specific discussion of the above spells and general discussion of the 4th level spell list. Are there some worthwhile spells from alternate sources that seem fun and relatively balanced? We've already looked through Tome & Blood, FFG's School of Evocation and of course the PHB (3.5). I also have Relics & Rituals but I didn't have it with me and haven't had a chance to look through yet.

Sometime I think the problem is just that Fireball should not have been a 3rd level spell in the first place. I guess it's a sacred cow, but I would've rather seen it moved up to 4th.

 

[Thanee]

Best 4th level damaging evocation I know is Tirumael's Energy Spheres from Magic of Faerûn. That's a good spell against a single tough target, that doesn't have too many different resists.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

Naw, these spells are GREAT! Use Otiluke's to put spellcasters or burly fighters (not agile fighters) out of commission until all their allies are dead. Use Wall spells to divide and conquer the enemy. Use Shout to disrupt spellcasters. Use Ice Storm to make ice cream, since it pretty much sucks for everything else.

Third level evocation is all about the damage. Fourth level evocation is all about controlling the battlefield. Wall spells can be phenomenal in the effect they have on a combat: learn to use 'em, learn to love 'em.

Daniel

 

[Aaron2]

For example, how is Ice Storm supposed to be better than Fireball?

Ice storm doesn't have a save.


Aaron

 

[Epametheus]

If anything, Ice Storm is arguably underpowered for a 4th level spell.

The only real reason to use it is that it doesn't allow a save, so it'll actually work on the classes with evasion.

 

[Thanee]

In fact, you don't need any good damaging spells in 4th level. Fireball is good enough until 10th character level and by then you have 5th and soon 6th level spells to replace it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Merlion]

Your right about 4th level damage dealing, it is pretty poor (and 5th level is as bad or worse since it consists entirely of Cone of Cold)

I'd suggest picking up Magic of Faerun, it does have a lot of nifty little spells in it.

And, of course you can always just create some of your own


Ohh and the Orb Spells from Tome and Blood arent bad, although personaly I'd extend their range a little and have them either require a RTA, or a save, but not both as written.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Use Ice Storm to make ice cream, since it pretty much sucks for everything else.

Two points:
1. Ice storm has no save. Rogues hate it.
2. Its duration is one full round. Anyone moving through its area of effect during that full round take damage, and moves at half speed. It can be used to block a passage temporarily, or make enemies suffer when pursuing the party. If set up properly, your fighters might even be able to bull rush an opponent into it.

In pure damage terms, it's not equal to fireball, but it does have its uses.

Use Otiluke's to put spellcasters or burly fighters (not agile fighters) out of commission until all their allies are dead.

Can't agree more. Otiluke's resilient sphere is one of the most underrated spells around. Great for dividing-and-conquering.

 

[welby]

Acid Orb was always fun (Tome & Blood). Split it into multiple orbs and have each hit one target. If they fail their save, they're nauseated. In other words, all they can do is take 1 move action.

 

[nameless]

1. Ice storm has no save. Rogues hate it.

I think this is said fairly often, but really not true. Sure, it has no save, but 5d6 does about 17 damage on average. At 7th level, that is the same as a non-critical hit from a barbarian. That is to say, a wizard's most powerful offense should probably have some upside compared to a single hit from the tank... otherwise why bother? The tank isn't running out of swings anytime soon. Against rogues, a wizard is much better off with Evard's Black Tentacles to grapple, or some mind-affecting spell (Phantasmal Killer, Suggestion, or Hold Person come to mind).

It does damage over a full round, which is nice to disrupt spellcasters, but there are plenty of ways to disrupt spellcasters, and a lot that are lower level do just as good a job.

Doing hit point damage is important to beat the tanks, but it's usually better to impair the fighter-types, since they fight just as well at 100 hp as at 1 hp.

My point is this: yeah, Ice Storm does some stuff that can be useful. But it doesn't fill any niche, nor is it versatile enough to just be thrown out willy-nilly. Spell slots are valuable commodities, wasting a level 4 spell when a level 2 spell will do (especially when level 4 spells are the heavy-hitters) can really screw a wizard over.