D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 ECL vs CR Differences

[Oryan77]

One thing that always throws me off when looking at published NPC stat blocks and my knowledge for creating my own is when a race with an LA+2 or higher has a CR that does not equal HD+LA. For example, NPC Drow have an LA+2 but you only add +1 to their CR rather than the LA+2.

Sean Reynolds explains it here:
Effective Character Level and Challenge Ratings

For those of us that are not masters at creating NPCs, is there an exact method to determine when an NPC does not add his entire LA to his CR score?

Sean Reynolds gives an example, but he isn't clear on exactly when, if, and how you give an NPC a lower CR than it's PC version. Can an LA+4 actually be 2 or 3 CRs lower? How do I know when an LA+ NPC does not have a lower CR?

Can anyone explain this in more detail or direct me to the appropriate page in a book? Or is this more of a "wing it" situation?

I always forget about this and I'm wondering if a lot of NPCs I create are actually a lower CR than I thought.

 

[anest1s]

you only care for the CR when making NPCs. The LA is only for PCs.

A doppelganger is CR 3 and has a LA +4.

A PC doppelganger would have ECL 8 (4 HD+4 LA)
However a doppelganger is a CR 3, a challenging encounter for a level 3 party.

Doppelganger :: d20srd.org

A PC doppelganger with 1 level fighter would be ECL 9
A NPC doppelganger with 1 level fighter would be CR 4

NPC classes add to CR the number of levels of NPC class - 1
PC classes add to the CR the number of the levels they have
Except if they don't exactly help the creature (a doppelganger wouldn't use very much a level of wizard for example) then they count as half.

more info for improving monsters here
Improving Monsters :: d20srd.org

 

[Sekhmet]

I always thought it was LA + HD -1, because the first HD doesn't count.

 

[Rath the Brown]

The 'first hit die' isn't counted only when the creature has only 1 HD.

If a creature only has 1 HD, that HD is replaced by its first class level. If a creature has more than 1 HD, all hit dice are kept.

 

[Sekhmet]

Well then.

 

[Oryan77]

Thanks for clearing this up for me. All these years and I'm still learning.

One thing that I thought about was; how do you determine the CR for a monster build that only shows racial traits but not a full monster stat block (no CR is listed). For example, making a Half-Ogre NPC using the racial traits from Races of Destiny.

Is it just based on how many hit die it has? If the racial traits give it 4 racial HD, it's a CR 4, or no racial HD means you just add class levels to determine CR?

I tried searching the srd but I couldn't find where it explained that. Or I just overlooked it.

 

[anest1s]

(I was gonna bring yuan ti as an example but...huh)

Rakshasa :: d20srd.org

It is CR 10, it has 7 HD and +7 LA.

Doppelganger :: d20srd.org

is CR 3, 4HD +4 LA

I don't think there is a connection between them. Usually there is the creature entry before the "As Characters" list.

___
for the half ogre I think its weaker, or equal to the Drow and because you will need to give it a class (PC or NPC) I think the

Challenge Rating

Drow with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level. Drow with levels in PC classes have a CR equal to their character level +1.

line should work fine.

 

[Oryan77]

That's what I was afraid of. I'm no expert at monster building, but from what I've gathered, a lot of the creation process is just an estimate for determining CR.

So in this case, I should just compare the racial traits to something else to get an idea for what an appropriate CR would be? There isn't any specific formula to get a CR based on the racial traits provided? Depending on the creator, one might give it a certain CR but another person might give it a slightly different CR?

 

[anest1s]

Usually all the published monsters have a CR...sometimes it is accurate some times it is not. I threw an Allip at my players, they are level 2 and it was CR 3. Turned out they couldn't do anything but run. And it was the only encounter that day.

However usually it is accurate.

So yes if you want to make a new monster the biggest problem is deciding what its CR should be.

Here is an ok guide, it includes a formula to get a CR for a monster...but I think you will have to compare it with other monsters and playtest it too if you want to be 100% accurate.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

from what I've gathered, a lot of the creation process is just an estimate for determining CR.

This is the most important thing, right here. CRs are mostly just a guess and compare game. On the plus side, CR guessing is a pretty forgiving hobby, so if you are off by a CR or two either way, it should not affect play much.