D&D General The thread where I review a ton of Ravenloft modules

Paul Farquhar · May 21, 2024

James Gasik said:
Of course, the other problem with 5e lycanthropy is that Remove Curse exists and is only a 3rd level spell. So if being a murder monster becomes too much of a burden, it's fairly easy to undo.

VGR addresses this.:

While more general curses can lifted by a remove curse spell, more specific or dramatic curses can’t be permanently lifted through spells. Magic can offer temporary respite, though. A remove curse spell cast on the victim of such a curse suppresses the burden for 1 hour. A greater restoration spell suppresses the burden until the victim finishes a long rest.

Also, under loup garrou:

A Humanoid who succumbs to a loup garou’s lycanthropy becomes a werewolf. This form of lycanthropy can’t be removed while the loup garou that inflicted the curse lives.

Remathilis · May 21, 2024

der_kluge said:
One thing I was just looking at had a novel solution - they reserved the full powers for anything under 7th level (not sure why that level exactly). I'd want to avoid having to deal with the PC infecting other things, and having to roll those saves and yes - it does create a pandemic of werewolves, which is also super problematic, and not very realistic. One could also argue that maybe you have to work up to a certain level as a werewolf before your bites are toxic enough to transmit it.

At any rate, I'll try to read what Van Richten has to say on the topic.

Grim Hallow 5e has some decent rules for lycanthropy if you are looking for a way to embrace the curse and still play.

James Gasik said:
Of course, the other problem with 5e lycanthropy is that Remove Curse exists and is only a 3rd level spell. So if being a murder monster becomes too much of a burden, it's fairly easy to undo.

Hinted at in the lycanthrope section in VRGR is rule that remove curse doesn't work as long as the lycanthrope who infected them is alive. That way, the cure now hinges on hunting the hunter.

TiQuinn said:
Those sections went on for-EV-er too. There were so many changes that any time anyone cast a spell, you’d be looking up the effects and usually the player didn’t know in advance because that was supposed to be part of the horror - finding out your spell was twisted or ineffective in some way!

In practice, it slowed the game to a crawl as the player was reading the spell in PHB and the DM was looking up the changes in the Ravenloft book and cross referencing what changed. It meant the act of casting all but the most simple attack magic a chore and often killed the mood more than enhanced it.

I wasn't sad to see it removed in favor of a few general guidelines rather than spell by spell changes.

TiQuinn · May 21, 2024

James Gasik said:
Doesn't Zone of Truth allow for a saving throw at least? Plus, this line of text makes it difficult to employ (at least that's been my experience):

An affected creature is aware of the spell and can thus avoid answering questions to which it would normally respond with a lie. Such a creature can be evasive in its answers as long as it remains within the boundaries of the truth.

The problem is this becomes a player Vs DM game where 4+ players artfully phrase questions in ways to reduce the chance of lying or making omissions of the truth painfully apparent and the DM has to figure a way out on the spot.

It’s still a powerful spell for 2nd level that drastically impacts certain types of stories. One can always alter that for Ravenloft as an across the board nerf which I’m okay with because it’d be known upfront and in keeping with the concept of the setting but elsewhere that wouldn’t fly.

Just my greater opinion on where I think the game needs improvement.

humble minion · May 21, 2024

TiQuinn said:
That is actually not a bad idea! I mean, 2nd edition was rewarding XP for monster killing, and optionally treasure and both of those are less in keeping with Ravenloft than being the person who walks into a dark basement saying “Who goes there?”

I use inspiration points for rewards for that kind of thing when DMing.

Although I’m running Dragonlance right now, so ‘do something dumb because you’re consumed with dumb melodramatic 80s romantic drama’ is more the genre thing there. But yeah, inspiration point for doing something that would make the viewer of a horror movie yell at the screen is the way to go in Ravenloft…

TiQuinn · May 21, 2024

humble minion said:
I use inspiration points for rewards for that kind of thing when DMing.

Although I’m running Dragonlance right now, so ‘do something dumb because you’re consumed with dumb melodramatic 80s romantic drama’ is more the genre thing there. But yeah, inspiration point for doing something that would make the viewer of a horror movie yell at the screen is the way to go in Ravenloft…

I've kind of found that inspiration points are just not enough motivation in 5e - players already have so many ways to create advantage for themselves that inspiration itself gets forgotten.

humble minion · May 21, 2024

TiQuinn said:
I've kind of found that inspiration points are just not enough motivation in 5e - players already have so many ways to create advantage for themselves that inspiration itself gets forgotten.

Yeah, I also house-rule it so that inspiration points add 1d6 to a roll, and can be used after the player sees the result of the original roll. Which is a bit more impactful and gives players a bit more control of their destiny.

Plus, I hand them out like candy, which means they get spent more often and so stay closer to the front of players’ minds.

Bedrockgames · May 21, 2024

TiQuinn said:
Those sections went on for-EV-er too. There were so many changes that any time anyone cast a spell, you’d be looking up the effects and usually the player didn’t know in advance because that was supposed to be part of the horror - finding out your spell was twisted or ineffective in some way!

That was definitely part of the horror. It goes back to the Knight of the Black Rose thing I mentioned. You have players coming in with expectations based on their experiences in other settings and things in Ravenloft don't work as expected, their ability to affect the world is more limited by these kinds of changes

Remathilis · May 21, 2024

Bedrockgames said:
That was definitely part of the horror. It goes back to the Knight of the Black Rose thing I mentioned. You have players coming in with expectations based on their experiences in other settings and things in Ravenloft don't work as expected, their ability to affect the world is more limited by these kinds of changes

Though to be fair, much of the changes in Ravenloft are horrific to foreigners (and players unfamiliar with the changes) but not as effective on natives. A native caster might not know why certain spells don't work, but they know they don't. And while Ravenloft isn't very big on mage guilds and schools, the notion that divination is unreliable, conjuration rarely works right, and necromancy is corrupting would probably be heard about.

Long story short, I find the corruption of spells fun for a few sessions before it gets tedious.

Voadam · May 21, 2024

TiQuinn said:
Those sections went on for-EV-er too. There were so many changes that any time anyone cast a spell, you’d be looking up the effects and usually the player didn’t know in advance because that was supposed to be part of the horror - finding out your spell was twisted or ineffective in some way!

Yep, most everything that could be thematically changed, individual spells, class powers, magic items, was.

It was a lot like 1e where the DMG had a whole section on further hidden rules for the PHB spells and class abilities so a DM might need to look up hidden aspects of things the players thought they could do based on the PH (thief backstab is significantly restricted in the DMG and many spells have hidden aspects) but ended up finding out through play or reading the DM sourcebook.

Also it continued the trend from the 1e Manual of Planes where each plane had a list of spell alterations while on the plane.

Bedrockgames · May 21, 2024

Remathilis said:
Though to be fair, much of the changes in Ravenloft are horrific to foreigners (and players unfamiliar with the changes) but not as effective on natives. A native caster might not know why certain spells don't work, but they know they don't. And while Ravenloft isn't very big on mage guilds and schools, the notion that divination is unreliable, conjuration rarely works right, and necromancy is corrupting would probably be heard about.

Long story short, I find the corruption of spells fun for a few sessions before it gets tedious.

Certainly the punch of the spell changes specifically get lost with time and exposure (it is really a question of player rather than character familiarity with them). But I would say 1) everything in Ravenloft operates on this principle so even things they learn about, like vampires being different, continue to be elusive and unique, allowing for this to sustain 2) The spell changes are more than just adding to the horror through the characters first exposure to them, they are changes that help maintain the feel of the genre where spells could diminish the feel (so it may be surprising the first time they learn how Detect Alignment works, but it still continues to function in service to maintaining the feel of horror as you can't detect good or evil in the setting)

D&D General The thread where I review a ton of Ravenloft modules

Paul Farquhar

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Remathilis

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TiQuinn

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humble minion

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