Good stuff.
Healing Potions: My group has felt that healing potions in combat have always been useless in any d20 game. The amount of in combat damage received vs what a healing potion gives isn't worth it. They've always been after combat healing and thats not really an issue in PF2.
I do see why they would want to move away from Cure Light Wands. As in, Medicine feels like a better more organic solution (conceptually, not mechanically). Making Medicine work "realistically" doesn't work if there's cheap magical healing anyway, so why not move the focus over to a skill, which then anyone can take.
I mean, I understand it if you want the
old school feeling where natural healing gives, what, your level in hit points healed per whole day of rest? But that just doesn't work in PF2.
- PF2 assumes you're close to fully healed when an encounter starts. Each encounter is enough by itself to kill you.
- AD&D assumes heroes routinely travel around wounded and weary. The vast majority of encounters are only capable of further shaving away a couple of more hit points. (Hey, that's the theory. I know full well lots of groups wanted more spice than that) The Cleric's healing needs to last all day.
But making in-combat healing entirely reliant on magical healing (and specifically, the +8 bonus of two-action Heals)? Nope, that goes too far. It makes it impossible to make do with anything less than a primary healer, one that devotes her actions to healing, one that picks a class that provides top-of-the-line healing tools.
If you'd love to play a "secondary healer" you'll love my potions, since it means warriors can now help themselves when your limited healing gets overwhelmed. Not to mention when you'd rather kick some butt yourself!
And you're right. I've never understood why designers keep making magic potions so damn feeble. At least not in any game with anything near the exponential power progression of D&D in general (and PF2 specifically). Low level potions become useless in combat so damn quickly they can't break any balance.
And out of combat, all they do is duplicate what Medicine already gives you. So I'm not worried better potions will make the Medicine skill useless. Why drink potions that cost gold (even just a couple of gold pieces) when Medicine heals you up for no cost in gold at all?
That potions can now be used in an emergency (to heal up in minutes instead of multiple 10-minute chunks) is to me a good thing. It allows a middle stage between "holy crap - Cleric, cast your best Heal on me STAT" and "one hour after taking your break, everybody is back up on their feet".
Heal spells <-> Potions (likely cheap low-level ones imbibed in bulk) <-> "natural" healing.
Talismans. Here is where I disagree. Talismans are not scrolls for EDIT: fighters mages. They are items are activated on reactions and free actions. They are freebies that enhance or react to other actions. They fill a hole in the action economy aspect of how magic items are used. Your fix for talismans doesnt solve their problem you have with them. You created a new type of item, that gives martials a bigger attack bonus, which is the last thing they need.
Well, in my not so humble opinion that "hole in the action economy" should never have been filled, let alone been considered a hole that needed fillin' in the first place.
Pathfinder 2 is already an exceptionally complex and fiddly game. Adding a whole extra layer to that, that subtly changes the way each little rule works for just that action, is... is... just the worst idea ever.
Adding 1d4 damage to a single attack? That also gives 1d4 persistent bleed damage but only if the attack dealt sneak damage?
Turn a single Medicine check from a critical failure to a regular failure? That only applies to one specific action (Administer First Aid)?
Get awesome jumping skills? For a single jump only, and only if you succeed at the check. And only if you're really good at Athletics in the first place, so it is useless for those that really need it...
The list goes on and on. You're expected to remember exactly how every rule works, and exactly how that rule is tweaked. Often for a single application, even a single attempt.
In contrast, there exists Talismans that actually have an impact.
Getting a Swim speed? Yes, that can actually solve an adventuring challenge. But wait - you only get it for a single minute, and your Swim speed is half your regular speed... so any time the body of water isn't trivially small, you're still frakked.
Get Invisibility per the spell? Noice. Except you need to be no less than Master in Stealth (making you pretty much the hero that needs it the least). You only get it when an incoming attack misses you (so you must already be in combat and the enemies must already know where you are). And you only get it at level 12, where a level 2 invisibility no longer is impressive.
And to gain these minuscule and fiddly bonuses, what do you need to do? You need to administer exactly which Talisman you put where. You need to do it well in advance (affixing a Talisman takes 10 minutes). You then need to remember that you affixed it. Every time you take an applicable action you need to decide whether to expend your Talisman now, or save it for later.
This is a mind-blowing level of complexity (and I don't mean in a good way). No sane player will ever want to waste his brain power on administering such incredibly miserly and petty bonuses like that. If the game was a computer rpg you'd need scripting to help you remember when to use what Talisman, for crissakes!
The design space "explored" by Talismans is by far the game's worst aspect. No wonder people prefer 5th Edition...
So. You're right. My proposed Talismans don't try to do anything even close to what Paizo intended them to do. That's supposed to be a good thing.
Even then, I concede the Wolf/Bear/Tiger Talismans are lazy.
I would love to rewrite the entire section on Talismans to make them actually do something worth the time and effort needed.
A Talisman that helps with First Aid Checks checks should... not just apply to that specific action, that's way too specific. It should make you avoid critical failures for all Medicine checks, and to do that for at least 10 minutes. Then we'd have something.
A Talisman that gives you Jump should not apply to a single jump only, and there should be zero hoops (to jump through
). And even then 10 feet horizontally is just pathetic. Make it so that a successful jump takes you 50 feet in any direction, and make it last a full minute, and we'll talk.
The list goes on and on... There does exist a very small selection of mainly high level Talismans that are actually worth a damn, but by that time a player will be well and truly allergic to the whole notion. In the end, it's just better to treat every Talisman you find as vendor trash. You'll save a lot of head ache, you weren't likely to ever remember to use a Talisman when it would have made a difference, and the money you save will likely be put to much better uses no matter how you choose to spend it!
Since I don't have the time to rewrite existing Talismans, I'm afraid "lazy" Wolf/Bear/Tiger Talismans is all you get... so let's discuss that thing you said:
"You created a new type of item, that gives martials a bigger attack bonus, which is the last thing they need."
Not the first part - I've already conceded my Talismans doesn't do what Paizo created them to do. The other part.
First off - heroes in PF2 hit so poorly I see a definite space for temporary bonuses like this. I mean, a D&D 5E hero is calibrated to hit maybe on a 7. In contrast, a PF2 hero will only hit on a 11. Even if you hunt down bonuses you often end up short (and that's even before the D&D heroes starts looking for bonuses of their own). And that's only the first attack.
Secondly - I make these bonuses available not only to martial heroes. Any attack can get them, as long as you make an attack (i.e. not when you force a foe to save).
I hope this makes you see Talismans in a new light.
Special Material usage: I like it and agree. Most of the special materials are uninspiring. I like your list.
Thank you
Yes, there were too many special materials that simply doesn't do anything even close to what they cost. My only explanation is the dev team ran out of time. Anyway, as I'm sure you agree, I don't actually attempt to fix those special materials. I merely add ones that help you take your mind off 'em...
I should probably say something regarding applying new weaknesses to existing monsters. I'll do that in a separate post.
Spell caster help: I also agree casters need help. Our group is level 6 and what we have found at every level is that while casters needed a nerfing compared to other d20 rulesets, they went too far. Spells that hinder, stun, or anything apart from damage need to (1) critical hit/critical fail the save to get anything worth it and then it only lasts (2) 1 round vs 1 minute for other games similar spells. We also are finding the (3) spell attack bonus is falling behind the attack bonus for martials. it takes (4) 2 actions for spells vs 1 action for a strike. (5) spells are vancian so you have to prepare ahead of time and hopefully guess correctly in what you need and are limited by spell slots (though this is the same in other games). These 5 factors make it so our casters are just not having fun.
Allowing mages to cast spells through a special material item is a good idea and gives them the same option as martials. I went one further and am allowing potency weapon runes to be added to wands to help the attack bonus issue.
I already suggested allowing fundamental runes for wands (in a separate thread). In this context, I didn't want to blur the lines of existing runes. So I limit myself to the new talismans.
I should also probably reiterate that my discussions with
@Celtavian means I'm really only vouching for the first half of the game. Sure I provide complete coverage even for high levels, but I do so mainly to not be incomplete. I haven't yet play tested those levels.
I did consider the more restricted idea that only the specific spell (or spells in case of a staff) could benefit. That is, a Wizard casting a Cone of Cold (using her own spell slots) while wielding a Cone of Cold wand made out of Elysian Bronze, and that giant's weakness applies. But cast a Fireball while wielding the same wand, and the weakness does not apply, since the wand doesn't do that spell.
In this case, there would be no need to limit casters to just one special material. That is, a wizard could use a wand made out of obsidian just fine. (Against aberrations, of course, not giants)
What do you think? Which is more fun for the spellcaster?
On one hand, allowing you to cast anything while wielding your wand means the wand's spell doesn't ultimately matter.
On the other hand, having to have a specific combination of spell + special material means this makes special materials a big deal for casters - something that requires real administration. Perhaps even creates a golf-bag-of-wands syndrome.
On the third hand, it lends specificity to the loot part of playing a caster. It makes staffs even more awesome since one staff contains many spells.
