Spelljammer Converting Spelljammer creatures

Arnwyn

First Post
I'd like a single Gossamer Noble to have at least a bit of a fighting chance against a Gammaroid - even if it dies most of the time (implied by being "prey"), the fact that it is the "natural enemy" of Gammaroids (noted in both the Gossamer Noble and Gammaroid entries) should count for something. Especially when noted under the Gammaroid entry is "The gammaroid is the undisputed master of any ecosystem it inhabits. Its only natural enemy is the gossamer noble..." and under the Gossamer Noble entry "These solitary predators..." implying that they are at least somewhat often found alone.

I'm happy with a combination of HD, high Con, and/or reasonably good defenses vs. Gammaroids so that it lasts some rounds before getting eaten by a Gammaroid. I sort of see a sperm whale vs. giant squid thing going on here. One usually comes out on top, but (supposedly) it's a big fight. Or so the legend goes, I suppose.
 

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Cleon

Legend
I'm happy with a combination of HD, high Con, and/or reasonably good defenses vs. Gammaroids so that it lasts some rounds before getting eaten by a Gammaroid. I sort of see a sperm whale vs. giant squid thing going on here. One usually comes out on top, but (supposedly) it's a big fight. Or so the legend goes, I suppose.

I think giving the Gossamer 58 HD and an at-best average for its size Constitution is fine - a high Con doesn't feel right for a jellyfish. We just need to make sure the Noble's paralyzing poison is potent enough it can take out a careless or unlucky Gammaroid.

The gossamer's best chance against a gammaroid is its paralyzing tentacles. The Gammaroid tactics says they cut off the Noble Gossamer's tentacles before going in for the kill, so in 3E terms their poison is potent enough for some of it to get through the Gammaroid's hardened abilities - suggesting it does at least 2d6 Dex damage.

From a numerical basis, the AD&D Noble Gossamer is seriously outmatched by a Gammaroid - its twenty tentacles have a 40% chance of hitting the Gammaroid's AC -10, so it does an average of 28 damage per round, meaning it'd need 16 rounds to bring an average (450 hp) Gammaroid down. Contrariwise the MC9 Gammaroid hits a Noble Gossamer on a 2+ for an average of roughly 183 damage per round, killing the Gossamer in an average of 1.4 rounds.

In 3E terms, the Gammaroid's Fort save of +71 means it will likely only fail its save on a 1, but with the Noble Gossamer's 20 tentacle attacks this is likely to happen at least once (there's a roughly 64% chance of rolling at least one 1 on twenty d20). If the Gossamer's poison does, say, 2d8 Dex damage, there's a 21 in 64 chance of rolling the 11+ Dex damage that will penetrate the Gammaroid's hardened ability defence, and if the Gossamer rolls a 16 on the 2d8 it'll paralyze the Gammaroid on the spot.

Also, don't forget that the poison will do double damage on a critical hit, making it extremely likely to cause paralysis if the Gammaroid fails its saving throw.
 



Cleon

Legend
Noble Gossamer Working Draft

Gossamer, Noble
Colossal Aberration
Hit Dice: 58d8+464 (725 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Fly 200 ft. (clumsy)
Armor Class: 32 (–8 size, –4 Dex, +18 natural, +16 deflection), touch 14, flat-footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple: +43/+70
Attack: Sting +46 melee (1d8 acid plus poison)
Full Attack: 20 stings +46 melee (1d8 acid plus poison)
Space/Reach: 120 ft./30 ft. (500 ft. with sting)
Special Attacks: Acid, attach, corrosive grasp, poison
Special Qualities: Airy, deliquescence, fast healing 6*, fire resistance 10*, voidborn
* due to feat
Saves: Fort +33, Ref +21, Will +38
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 3, Con 26, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Spot +62
Feats: Diehard, Dire Charge, Endurance, Energy Resistance (Fire), Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Fast Healing×2, Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Hover, Improved Initiation, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Perfect Health, Run, Superior Initiative, Wingover
Environment: Space
Organization: Solitary, smack (2–4), or flotilla (5–8)
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 59–116 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

A vast jellyfish floats in space. Its translucent flesh glows with cool colors that flow across its skin in waves, and lightning-like flashes zip across the clouds of light within its pearly interior. The creature is titanic; its body is wider than many ships are long, the numerous tentacles that radiate from its base must reach hundreds of yards. Most of its body is comprised of balloon-like sails.


Enormous relatives of the common gossamer, a noble gossamer is a colonial organism formed from countless smaller jelly-creatures living as one. Noble gossamers are social creatures who often travel in small groups. Their beautiful color display appear to be some sort of communication. A relaxed gossamer glows green, blue or purple, with the occasional flicker of yellow or orange. Alarmed gossamers flash bright red and amber.

Noble gossamers are predators who actively hunt creatures much smaller than themselves. They will attack ships, plucking crew and passengers off the decks with their tentacles. They prefer to hunt alone, but will form a flotilla with other gossamers to fight an enemy to strong to face individually. There is only one creature that naturally predates noble gossamers, the gammaroid. A single noble gossamer is no match for a gammaroid, but a flotilla of them can often defeat one of these space chelonians.

A noble gossamer's diaphanous body is mostly empty space, but is not as delicate as a standard gossamer. They can enter the gravity field or air envelope of anything less massive than a small planetoid without collapsing and dying under their own weight.

An average-sized noble gossamer is 120 feet in diameter and weighs 500 tons; its stinging tentacles are up to 500 feet long. The largest ones can span 250 feet.

Combat
Instead of concentrating upon one or two enemies, a noble gossamer prefers to attack as many opponents as it can reach. The creature attempts to grab opponents with its stinging tentacles, then keeps hold while its acid and poison kills the prey.

A noble gossamer has hundreds of tentacles (approximately ten for every Hit Dice it possesses), but can attack with no more than twenty of them at any given time. If a tentacle becomes badly injured in a fight, the gossamer can simply substitute one of its hundreds of "spare" tentacles for it.

A noble gossamer’s tentacles are AC 16 and have 10 hit points each. An opponent can attack a noble gossamer’s tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. If a noble gossamer is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a noble gossamer’s tentacles does no damage to the gossamer itself. The creature regrows severed tentacles in 1d10+10 days.

A noble gossamer can attack or grapple a Small or Medium opponent with only two tentacles at once. It can target a larger foe with two additional tentacles for each extra 5 feet of space the opponent has, provided that the gossamer has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can use only one tentacle. It can use a maximum of two tentacles against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area.

Acid (Ex): A gossamer's acidic enzymes only damage organic materials, such as flesh or leather.

Airy (Ex): Since a noble gossamer is constantly pulsating and its anatomy is made up of a (relatively) small amount of living tissue and lots of empty space, it is difficult to know where to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack directed at a noble gossamer has a 20% miss chance. The blow or missile may pass through the creature’s body without harming it. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.

Attach (Ex): If a noble gossamer hits an opponent with a tentacle attack, its sticky tentacle automatically attaches to the opponent. An attached noble gossamer is effectively grappling its prey, but has the option to simply use its tentacle to hold the opponent (–20 penalty on grapple checks, but the gossamer is not considered grappled).

A noble gossamer gains a +2 racial bonus on grapple checks per tentacle it has attached to an opponent (e.g. +6 for three tentacles).

Corrosive Grasp (Ex): Every round a noble gossamer keeps hold of an opponent with its acid-secreting tentacles, it automatically inflicts 1d8 acid damage per tentacle that has hold of the opponent (e.g. four tentacles do 4d8 acid damage). In addition, the opponent is automatically exposed to poison attacks from all tentacles that are holding it.

Deliquescence (Ex): 1d3 rounds after a gossamer noble dies, its remains melt into a foul-smelling puddle 300 ft. across. The viscous liquid of the puddle is corrosive and poisonous. Contact with the fluid does 1d8 point of acid damage and exposes the touching object to the gossamer's poison (see below). The dangerous properties of the fluid evaporate away 1d10+10 minutes after the creature deliquesced.

Poison (Ex): A gossamer's tentacles secrete poisonous enzymes that can sicken or paralyze on contact. The liquid remains of a recently dead gossamer are also poisonous, and remain dangerous until 1d10+10 minutes after the creature's Deliquescence (see above).

Noble Gossamer poison: Contact (tentacles or body fluid), Fort DC 47, initial damage 2d8 Dex, secondary damage 1d12 Dex and nauseated for 1d3 minutes. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Voidborn (Ex): A gossamer can exist comfortably in the harsh conditions of space. It takes no damage from radiation or vacuum. However, a noble gossamer is vulnerable to gravity and pressure. If a noble gossamer enters the air envelope or gravity field of a creature or object that masses at least one billion tons, it immediately collapses in on itself and dies.

In Spelljammer
A noble gossamer collapses if it enters the gravity field or air envelope of anything that masses at least a billion tons (two million times the weight of the noble gossamer). If you're using the Spelljammer campaign setting, creatures and objects produce a gravity field approximately three times wider than their dimensions (e.g. a 2 foot by 3 foot by 6 foot sarcophagus generates a gravity field roughly 4 foot by 9 foot by 18 foot). This gravity field is what retains the creature's air envelope (if any), so the air envelope will be the same size as the gravity field. A particularly big object or creature also produces a gravity well that has a much larger radius. The pull of such gravity wells is usually too weak to cause gossamers to collapse.

For convenience, it may be simpler to assume most creatures have gravity fields three times wider than their Space, so a Medium size creature (Space: 5 ft.) has a gravity field 15 ft. wide, a Large creature (Space: 10 ft.) has a gravity field 30 ft. wide, and so on.
 
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freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
P.S. A Gammaroid's natural weapons average 147 damage, so assuming they miss on a 1 and do a crit on a 19-20 a full attack would do roughly 154 average damage, not 144.

Now I have to check my math! Bite = 16d6+32=16*3.5+32=88, Claw = 3d8+16=3*4.5+16=29.5 for each successful, non-critical hit.
We usually assume all attacks are successful in these calculations, so I'm dropping the miss chance on rolling 1. But add in that 10% of successful hits are crits with double damage and you get
(88+59)(0.9+0.1*2)=161.7. Wonder what I did wrong before? Just added wrong, probably. With the miss chance on a natural 1, you get (88+59)*(0*0.05+0.85+2*0.1)=154. Cool.


I think giving the Gossamer 58 HD and an at-best average for its size Constitution is fine - a high Con doesn't feel right for a jellyfish. We just need to make sure the Noble's paralyzing poison is potent enough it can take out a careless or unlucky Gammaroid.

The gossamer's best chance against a gammaroid is its paralyzing tentacles. The Gammaroid tactics says they cut off the Noble Gossamer's tentacles before going in for the kill, so in 3E terms their poison is potent enough for some of it to get through the Gammaroid's hardened abilities - suggesting it does at least 2d6 Dex damage.

From a numerical basis, the AD&D Noble Gossamer is seriously outmatched by a Gammaroid - its twenty tentacles have a 40% chance of hitting the Gammaroid's AC -10, so it does an average of 28 damage per round, meaning it'd need 16 rounds to bring an average (450 hp) Gammaroid down. Contrariwise the MC9 Gammaroid hits a Noble Gossamer on a 2+ for an average of roughly 183 damage per round, killing the Gossamer in an average of 1.4 rounds.

In 3E terms, the Gammaroid's Fort save of +71 means it will likely only fail its save on a 1, but with the Noble Gossamer's 20 tentacle attacks this is likely to happen at least once (there's a roughly 64% chance of rolling at least one 1 on twenty d20). If the Gossamer's poison does, say, 2d8 Dex damage, there's a 21 in 64 chance of rolling the 11+ Dex damage that will penetrate the Gammaroid's hardened ability defence, and if the Gossamer rolls a 16 on the 2d8 it'll paralyze the Gammaroid on the spot.

Also, don't forget that the poison will do double damage on a critical hit, making it extremely likely to cause paralysis if the Gammaroid fails its saving throw.

Let's check: the BAB is currently +43 vs the gammaroid's AC of 60. The Str of a standard gossamer advanced to Colossal is 43, or a Str bonus of +16. So we can expect about every attack to hit, except for natural 1s. 5% of hits will be critical, 75% of which will be negated. And 10 points of ability damage is negated each time. So let's suppose it's 2d8 Dex damage. The average per hit damage is going to be a bit complicated due to the crits and so on. I suppose it will be just as easy to tabulate the rolls, their odds, and their damages as anything. The Avg Damage for a roll is (0.95+0.05*.75)*max(roll-10,0)+0.05*0.25*max(2*roll-10) including the chance of a crit.
Roll2345678910111213141516
Odds0.01560.03130.04690.06250.07810.09380.10940.12500.10940.09380.07810.06250.04690.03130.0156
Avg Damage00000.0250.050.0750.10.1251.13752.153.16254.1755.18756.2
Unless I've miskeyed that, that's 1.3 Dex damage on average per successful attack assuming the gammaroid fails the Fort save. So given that the gammaroid will fail a Fort save for one successful attack per round on average, that's 1.3 Dex damage per round, or a bit more than 4 rounds on average to paralyze the gammaroid (ignoring secondary damage, which happens too late for the poor gossamer). Meanwhile, the gossamer is likely to be dead in two rounds. The situation is worse if the gammaroid uses ramming and flaming sheath, especially since the gammaroid is immune to crits then. So I think the gammaroid would have to be quite unlucky to lose this fight -- roll a natural 1 on a Fort save against an attack where the poison value is either a very unlikely 16 or a successful crit on an 8 or above. And the gossamer only gets basically 1.5 attempts to do that.

I guess with these odds, I don't see the point in the gammaroid's stated tactics. It should just burn/ram in and then full attack. If it has initiative, it's almost guaranteed to win. I think we should boost the gossamer noble somehow.
 

Cleon

Legend
I guess with these odds, I don't see the point in the gammaroid's stated tactics. It should just burn/ram in and then full attack. If it has initiative, it's almost guaranteed to win. I think we should boost the gossamer noble somehow.

As I said before, I don't have any problem with a single Noble Gossamer having little chance of beating a Gammaroid in a fight. There's no reason not to assume it requires a flotilla of them to have a good chance of killing one. Wolves are the "natural predators" of moose, but they don't normally try unless there's a pack of them.

The Gossamer's odds are not great, but it still has a chance. My calculations shows its average Dex damage per round is pretty low, put it has a small but significant chance of one-shotting the Gammaroid every time it fails its Con check, since it has a roughly 2.4% chance of rolling 16 or more on its poison damage of either 2d8 (normal hit) or 4d8 (confirmed critical hit that penetrates its Fortification).

Furthermore, the Gammaroid might be unlucky and fail its Fort save several times against the Gossamer's multiple tentacle strikes. Assuming it gets hit by all twenty tentacle stings, the Gammaroid has a 37.8% chance of failing a single Fort save, an 18.9% chance of failing two, a 5.96% chance of failing three and a 1.33% chance of failing four (after that the odds drop below 1%).

Working out the precise odds would require more work than I can be bothered performing, but I reckon a single Noble Gossamer has at least a 1-in-thirty chance of paralyzing a Gammaroid with a single full attack. Two or three Gossamers working together with overlapping fields-of-sting would greatly increase the chance of the Gammaroid becoming helplessly paralyzed.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Yeah, we could go back and forth on the probabilities and really nail it down, but I don't think it's worth it. I think 1/30 is probably a bit high for a gossamer to "one-shot" a gammaroid, but I'm not sure that's the point. I guess I just don't see why a gammaroid would bother exposing itself to more attacks by going to the trouble of trying to sunder tentacles slowly rather than just full attacking away. Maybe you wouldn't mind changing the tactics?
 

Arnwyn

First Post
Yeah, I would say that it's either a tactics change or boost the Gossamer Noble to have the tactics make sense.

(My preference would have been to boost the Gossamer Noble to keep the same tactics, but I do realize I'm in the minority for that one... so probably a tactics change.)
 

Cleon

Legend
Yeah, we could go back and forth on the probabilities and really nail it down, but I don't think it's worth it. I think 1/30 is probably a bit high for a gossamer to "one-shot" a gammaroid, but I'm not sure that's the point. I guess I just don't see why a gammaroid would bother exposing itself to more attacks by going to the trouble of trying to sunder tentacles slowly rather than just full attacking away. Maybe you wouldn't mind changing the tactics?

One chance in thirty may not seem like very much, but for a predator hunting prey it's too risky in the long run.

If a wolf had that chance of being killed every time it attacked a sheep, then if it attacked ten sheep in ten different hunts it'd have a 28% chance of being killed. That might be too high a risk for the wolves to sustain a population since a wolf needs roughly thirty times its body weight of meat over its lifespan (so if that means it has to kill thirty sheep it has a 63% of being killed hunting them, plus it'll have all the other risks of living in the wild - disease, fights with rival predators, et cetera).

However, most of the meat a wolf has to eat is because it's homothermic and is burning calories to keep its body temperature up. Gammaroids are probably Poikilothermic so only need to eat about a tenth that much, so it's plausible that enough survive Noble Gossamers hunts to reproduce and sustain their numbers.

Of course, Gammaroids nutritional requirements might be wildly different from real-world creatures - their diet of "omnivore" could be literally true and they get most of their food from eating asteroids. That said, MC9 does say Noble Gossamers are their favourite prey, so I feel the have to be able to hunt them regularly without almost certainly dying, which means we should make the Gossamers substantially weaker than the Gammaroid rather than "strengthening them up".
 
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