Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

I'd have gone with 15 HD as the midpoint between 10HD Huge and 20HD Gargantuan for crocs, but otherwise, its good- smaller Deinosuchus work for 30 ft croc, largest specimens of Deinosuchus, Purussaurus (giant caiman), and Sarcosuchus all work well as 40 ft crocs.

Sauropods currently follow 24 HD Gargantuan, 48 HD colossal- since Colossal is supposed to start at 128 short tons, this may be a bit on the high side for diplodocid sauropods.

Still, it can work- given the fact that despite being slim, Huge diplodocids are still heavier on average than Huge theropods.

My current best guess for species for each category:

Diplodocids
Huge: 12 HD- Cetiosauriscus
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- Diplodocus carnegii
Gargantuan: 24 HD- Diplodocus hallorum
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- Supersaurus, 115 ft Mammenchisaurus
Colossal: 48 HD- Amphicoelias

Macronarians, heavily built or primitive sauropods
Huge: 12 HD- Saltasaurus
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- Cetiosaurus, Euhelopus, Apatosaurus
Gargantuan: 24 HD- Barapasaurus, Brachiosaurus, Giraffatitan
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- Sauroposeidon, Paralititan
Colossal: 48 HD- Bruhathkyosaurus, Argentinosaurus

This scheme seems to work OK- uses your size scaling system up to a point- but places Huge-and-a-half creatures midway between Huge and Gargantuan.

the Chunky Build system works quite well for whales- the largest reported sperm whales, the bowhead whales, and fin whales, all qualify as Colossal (being all comparable to Argentinosaurus in weight or higher, and the largest blue whales can be Colossal-and-a-half, with 60 HD.

For whales, I'd agree with trimming down the orca size a bit.

Average males and large-ish females work as 12 HD creatures, the males can be 18 HD creatures (huge-and-a-half- the T. rex of the sea.)

And the karate-killer whales sounds like a fun campaign concept- maybe the whale's tail slap should be more dangerous than the MM makes it.

For "gracile creatures" in general, like crocs, slim theropods, etc, multiples of 5 work for the larger sizes, and midpoints (rounding down) are just about passable for the smaller ones.

2 HD: Medium
3 HD: Medium-and-a-half
5 HD: Large
7 HD: Large-and-a-half
10 HD: Huge
15 HD: Huge-and-a-half
20 HD: Gargantuan
30 HD: Gargantuan-and-a-half
40 HD: Colossal

Dromaeosaurs, being, in some cases, rather more heavily built than most theropods of their size (Utahraptor, what little there is of it, has massive leg bones, for example) might actually follow the Robust scale:

1 HD- Small
2 HD- Small-and-a-half (Velociraptor)
3 HD- Medium
4 HD- Medium-and-a-half (Deinonychus)
6 HD- Large
8 HD- Large-and-a-half (Utahraptor, Achillobaator)
12 HD- Huge
18 HD- Huge-and-a-half
etc.

hamishspence said:

I'd have gone with 15 HD as the midpoint between 10HD Huge and 20HD Gargantuan for crocs, but otherwise, its good- smaller Deinosuchus work for 30 ft croc, largest specimens of Deinosuchus, Purussaurus (giant caiman), and Sarcosuchus all work well as 40 ft crocs.

Sauropods currently follow 24 HD Gargantuan, 48 HD colossal- since Colossal is supposed to start at 128 short tons, this may be a bit on the high side for diplodocid sauropods.

Still, it can work- given the fact that despite being slim, Huge diplodocids are still heavier on average than Huge theropods.

My current best guess for species for each category:

Diplodocids
Huge: 12 HD- Cetiosauriscus
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- Diplodocus carnegii
Gargantuan: 24 HD- Diplodocus hallorum
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- Supersaurus, 115 ft Mammenchisaurus
Colossal: 48 HD- Amphicoelias

Macronarians, heavily built or primitive sauropods
Huge: 12 HD- Saltasaurus
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- Cetiosaurus, Euhelopus, Apatosaurus
Gargantuan: 24 HD- Barapasaurus, Brachiosaurus, Giraffatitan
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- Sauroposeidon, Paralititan
Colossal: 48 HD- Bruhathkyosaurus, Argentinosaurus

This scheme seems to work OK- uses your size scaling system up to a point- but places Huge-and-a-half creatures midway between Huge and Gargantuan.

Click to expand...

Well as I mentioned before, my current take on Sauropods uses a non-standard HD progression, where the HD size advancement slows down a bit at the larger sizes.

Small 2 HD
Medium 4 HD
Large 8 HD
Huge 16 HD
Gargantuan 25 HD
Colossal 36 HD
(Maximum) 48 HD

Hmm, I'm tempted to change the 48 HD version to a "Colossal plus" and add a few intermediaries:

Small - 2 HD, Str 13
Little - 3 HD, Str 15
Medium - 4 HD, Str 17
Big - 6 HD, Str 19
Large - 8 HD, Str 21
Very Large - 12 HD, Str 25
Huge - 16 HD, Str 29
Enormous - 20 HD - Str 33
Gargantuan - 25 HD, Str 37
Titanic - 30 HD, Str 41
Colossal - 36 HD, Str 45
(Maximum) - 48 HD, Str 49

hamishspence said:

And the karate-killer whales sounds like a fun campaign concept- maybe the whale's tail slap should be more dangerous than the MM makes it.

Click to expand...

Well making the tail more dangerous than the MM orca wouldn't be very difficult, since the SRD version doesn't even have a tail-slap attack.

Although you'd want a higher level version to make it really dangerous. Say a Gargantuan (16 HD magical beast) 8th level monk with Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) - that'd be 6d8+Str damage per unarmed blow, with lawful and magic ki strike. Such a black-belt orca would have a +22 BAB, so full-attacks at +30/+25/+20/+15 (or +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 with flurry of blows) assuming it has the average of 33 strength and no other attack bonuses - although it would probably have a better Strength through a combination of the elite character array, HD advancement, magical items and various feats and possibly magic fang type spell boosts from allies.

Not to mention it can have three two Epic Feats from its 24 Hit Dice.

Hmm, now I'll have to stat out a Black-Belt Killer Whale to complement a Orca Abbot with enough levels in Druid to cast awaken on its kinfolk.

Cleon said:

Small - 2 HD, Str 13
Little - 3 HD, Str 15
Medium - 4 HD, Str 17
Big - 6 HD, Str 19
Large - 8 HD, Str 21
Very Large - 12 HD, Str 25
Huge - 16 HD, Str 29
Enormous - 20 HD - Str 33
Gargantuan - 25 HD, Str 37
Titanic - 30 HD, Str 41
Colossal - 36 HD, Str 45
(Maximum) - 48 HD, Str 49

Click to expand...

This one looks pretty good for exceptionally robust/formidable animals- sauropods, whales, etc.

Maybe it could be used for chunky theropods- a T. rex with 20 HD?
Medium and Large sizes match those of the errataed Deinonychus and Utahraptor (called Megaraptor).

The gap between Large and Huge is 8 HD, between Huge and Gargantuan is 9 HD, between Gargantuan and Colossal is 11 HD and between Colossal and (Maximum) is 12 HD-

maybe (Maximum) can be Colossal+, with a larger base size (40 ft), and a Str jump to match. And there could be an intermediate size between the two at 42 HD, similar to Enormous, Very Large, Titanic, etc.

Most sauropods and whales would max-out at around 36 HD, with only the bigger blue whales being 48 HD and having a 40 ft base.

And that 36 HD would correspond to a bit lower weight than what the MM gives for Colossal- 80-100 tons, rather than 125 tons, if we want Argentinosaurus to be included.

hamishspence said:

This one looks pretty good for exceptionally robust/formidable animals- sauropods, whales, etc.

Maybe it could be used for chunky theropods- a T. rex with 20 HD?
Medium and Large sizes match those of the errataed Deinonychus and Utahraptor (called Megaraptor).

The gap between Large and Huge is 8 HD, between Huge and Gargantuan is 9 HD, between Gargantuan and Colossal is 11 HD and between Colossal and (Maximum) is 12 HD-

maybe (Maximum) can be Colossal+, with a larger base size (40 ft), and a Str jump to match. And there could be an intermediate size between the two at 42 HD, similar to Enormous, Very Large, Titanic, etc.

Click to expand...

My original size schema ended at "Epic" for creatures with a 50 foot base like Devastation Vermin, with "Super-Colossal" as the intermediary step, if we add that in it could go something like.

Small - 2 HD, Str 13, 5 foot space
Little - 3 HD, Str 15
Medium - 4 HD, Str 17, 5 foot space
Big - 6 HD, Str 19
Large - 8 HD, Str 21, 10 foot space
Very Large - 12 HD, Str 25
Huge - 16 HD, Str 29, 15 foot space
Enormous - 20 HD - Str 33
Gargantuan - 25 HD, Str 37, 20 foot space
Titanic - 30 HD, Str 41
Colossal - 36 HD, Str 45, 30 foot space
Super-Colossal - 42 HD, Str 49 (40 foot space?)
Epic - 48 HD, Str 53 (50 foot space?)

Cleon said:

Hmm, now I'll have to stat out a Black-Belt Killer Whale to complement a Orca Abbot with enough levels in Druid to cast awaken on its kinfolk.

Click to expand...

Well I wasn't able to resist the urge to stat up a couple of higher-level awakened orcas, so here they are. I haven't bothered giving them magical equipment or listing all their SA and SQs under Combat.

EDIT: By the way, I used the SRD version of the various animals for this version, rather than an "improved" version. e.g. the abbot's Elasmosaurus animal companion is straight out of the MM, including its nigh-useless Toughness feats.

Elite Karate Killer Whales

Karate Orca Abbot
Awakened Elite Orca 10th level Druid, 4th level Monk
Huge Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 11d10+14d8+175 (298 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +6 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+36
Attack: Bite +26 melee (2d6+10) or unarmed strike +26 melee (3d6+7)
Full Attack: Bite +26 melee (2d6+10) or unarmed strike +26/+21/+16/+11 melee (3d6+7) or flurry of blows +25/+25/+20/+15/+10 melee (3d6+7)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large)
Special Qualities: Animal companion, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [+4 saves vs Fey], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +19, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 16, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8
Skills: Concentration +20, Heal +16, Jump +24, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (+27 without blindsight), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (+27 without blindsight), Survival +15, Tumble +19, Swim +29
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 28]
Epic Feats: Tenacious Magic (baleful polymorph)
Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pod (6–11)
Challenge Rating: 15
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful neutral
Advancement: 12–15 HD (Huge); 16–29 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

Combat

Animal Companion (Ex): The karate orca abbot has an Elasmosaurus as an animal companion:
Spells (Sp): 6/5/5/4/4/3, Caster level 10, DC 16 plus spell level (17+level for Transformation spells).
0 level — guidance×2, resistance×2, detect magic, flare
1st level — charm animal, cure light wounds, entangle, longstrider, speak with animals
2nd level — hold animal, barkskin, lesser restoration, owl's wisdom, warp wood
3rd level —greater magic fang, neutralize poison, protection from energy, water breathing
4th level — air walk, control water, dispel magic, freedom of movement
5th level — baleful polymorph (DC22), call lightning storm, stoneskin

Wild Shape (Su): This karate orca abbot prefers to wild shape into a Sea Eagle or Squid for scouting, a Large Shark for spying on Sahuagin, or a Giant Octopus for combat.
Black Belt Orca
Awakened Elite Advanced Orca 8th level Monk
Gargantuan Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 16d10+8d8+216 (340 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 70 ft. (14 squares)
Armor Class: 25 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +10 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+51
Attack: Bite +31 melee (3d6+19) or unarmed strike +31 melee (6d8+13)
Full Attack: Bite +31 melee (3d6+19) or unarmed strike +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (6d8+13) or flurry of blows +30/+30/+25/+20/+15 melee (6d8+13)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of blows, unarmed strike
Special Qualities: Blindsight 120 ft., evasion, fast healing 3, hold breath, ki strike (magic), low-light vision, purity of body, slow fall 40 ft., still mind, wholeness of body [16 hp/day]
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +19, Will +17 (+19 vs enchantment)
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 16, Con 28, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +35, Listen +29* (+25 without blindsight), Move Silently +16, Spot +29* (+25 without blindsight), Swim +21, Tumble +16
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Endurance, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip (B), Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Run, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 28]
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Fast Healing
Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pod (6–11)
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: None
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Advancement: 17–29 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

Anyway, now I've got those Karate Orcas off my chest I'll try to drag this thread back to Prehistoric Beasts.

I've got some Therizinosaurs in a presentable condition, although I'm not sure they're quite finished.

The main problem is I can't quite settle on what augmentation (if any) to give their scythe like claws. Originally I went for a 19-20×3 critical but I was concerned that might be a bit too much, so I then wondered about giving them a Rend special attack doing an extra lot of claw damage if it hits a single target with twice (e.g. if a Therizinosaurus hits a target with both 3d6+10 claw attacks it does an additional 3d6+10, for 9d6+30 in total).

While I am tempted to give them both, I'm not sure whether that isn't a bit exaggerated.

At the moment I've just given them a ×3 critical, to allow for them impaling foes on their extra-long claws. That feels like a reasonable compromise.

therizinosaurs

The therizinosaurs look pretty good- seeing as they are more upright than average theropods, and long in the arm as well, a reach equal to their space, as is given, looks pretty good.

The whale stats were interesting as well.

Apparently there are quite a lot of interesting prehistoric whales, but sadly only Basilosaurus appears in 3.5 (in the Frostburn book).

"Killer sperm whales" such as Zygophyseter and Brygmophyseter, which were midway between bull killer whales, and sperm whales, in size, had big teeth, and may have hunted large whales, in packs, might make for an interesting prehistoric "sea monster."

On size- and whether Colossal-and-a-half should get a 40 ft base and Colossal+ a 50 ft base- that might depend on if the creature gets both a bite/head slam attack and a tail slap, or not.

Baleen whales without a head attack, would work- especially if Colossal begins at 80 tons rather than 125. But with a head attack, even the Blue Whale is hard to justify as having a 50 ft base.

Without head attack, it would probably look something like this:

Short whales:
Pygmy Right Whale- Huge, 15 ft space, 10 ft tail slap
Small adult Right Whale- Gargantuan, 20 ft space, 15 ft tail slap
Big adult Right Whale- Colossal, 30 ft space, 20 ft tail slap
Big Bowhead Whale- Colossal-and-a-half, 40 ft space, 30 ft tail slap

Long whales:
Minke Whale- Huge, 15 ft space, 15 ft tail slap
Humpback Whale/Bryde's Whale- Gargantuan, 20 ft space, 20 ft tail slap
Sei Whale- Colossal, 30 ft space, 30 ft tail slap
Pygmy Blue Whale/Fin whale- Colossal-and-a-half, 40 ft space, 40 ft tail slap
Blue Whale- Colossal+, 50 ft space, 50 ft tail slap