Converting prehistoric creatures

xidoraven · Sep 16, 2009

Cleon said:
None really, the closest I can think of are warforged, which can get natural fortification with a feat. I just borrowed the idea from a dinosaur thread on paizo which suggested giving fortification to Ankylosaurus.

Something about comparing an ankylosaurus to a living construct such as a warforged brings a smile to my face.

Cleon said:
Oh, and the typo "Potatotherium" is just begging to be converted into some kind of plant monster, a Tuber Beast which takes extra damage from oil and hot fat, presumably.

Okay, this is true, but perhaps that is best suited for something less realistic than here.

Shade said:
If we make the Potamotherium the "dire otter", I wouldn't want to then make a dire version of it. That would result in a "dire dire otter".

On the other hand, if you want to just make Potamotherium its own beast, and then make a separate "dire otter", I'd be on-board for your proposals.

The version I made was simply taking a standard otter from Stormwrack and beefing it up with a homebrew dire creature templating method. I am all for making it as realistic as possible, and then making a dire version off of it (which will then in turn be even more powerful as celestial creatures on the Nymian Beastlands). I would rather begin with realism and go for the gusto with variations.

Cleon · Sep 16, 2009

xidoraven said:
The version I made was simply taking a standard otter from Stormwrack and beefing it up with a homebrew dire creature templating method. I am all for making it as realistic as possible, and then making a dire version off of it (which will then in turn be even more powerful as celestial creatures on the Nymian Beastlands). I would rather begin with realism and go for the gusto with variations.

That's my preference too. Let's start on a "realistic version" and see where we go.

Do you think my proposals in post #979 will do for a beginning?

After thinking about it I've lost my uncertainty over the 2 Hit Dice. I'm thinking it was about the weight of a big badger, which is 2 HD (Small) in the SRD, but probably not as bulky as a wolverine (25-50 lbs), which is 3 HD (Medium). That means it probably advances to Medium-sized.

Potamotherium
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-1
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1) [includes bonus Weapon Finesse feat]
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: ?
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium)

Typical length 4-5 ft, weight ~10-20 pounds?

GrayLinnorm · Sep 18, 2009

This may make an interesting conversion: They discovered a new type of dinosaur named Raptorex which was an ancestor of Tyrannosaurus. It looked exactly like a T-rex, but was only 8 feet tall.

www.usatoday.com/tech/science/discoveries/2009-09-17-mini-tyrannosaurus-rex_N.htm

Shade · Sep 18, 2009

I saw that as well, and immediately thought the same thing.

Here's another link to it:
Meet T-Rex's Diminutive Ancestor

Cleon · Sep 18, 2009

What a coincidence, I was reading about Raptorex kriegsteini in the papers too, and was thinking "Hmm, a Medium-sized Tyrannosaur, I wonder how many Hit Dice we'll give it over on Enworld".

Although it looks more like a pint-sized Albertosaurus to me than the big guy.

Anyway, I think we should finish with the River Beast before converting mini-rex.

Oh, and it's not eight foot tall, it's eight or nine feet long. Although the articles I've read said it was a big juvenile, so I'm presuming they probably grew a little larger than that.

Cleon · Sep 20, 2009

Okay, I've filled in the few gaps in my proposed stats for the "realistic animal" version of the Potamotherium and came up with the following.

I upped their speed because otters are pursuit hunters able to catch fairly fast fish by outswimming them, and decided to give them Spring Attack as a bonus feat because I remembered reading something about giant otters driving away or even killing Caymans by darting in-and-out to bite them before they can react, like a mongoose fighting a snake.

I also toyed with the idea of giving it a Special Attack like the Attach of the SRD's Weasel, but decided against it.

What do you think?

Potamotherium
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 40 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/–1
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./ 5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Agile swimmer, hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Balance +5, Climb +5, Escape Artist +6, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +11
Feats: Alertness, Spring Attack (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair or family (3-12)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

These slim fish-eating mammals may be a primitive ancestor of the modern otter, which they strongly resemble in shape and habits.

A typical Potamotherium is up to 5 feet long, including its tail, and weighs around 30 pounds.

Combat
These animals usually avoid combat, but when forced to fight they will circle around their opponent and use their Spring Attack feat to dart in, bite, and escape to a safe distance before their foe can respond.

Agile Swimmer (Ex): Unlike most creatures with a Swim speed, a Potamotherium does not have to move in a straight line when it makes a Run action while swimming. It can turn by 90 degrees for every 5 feet it travels.

Hold Breath (Ex): A Potamotherium can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning. For a typical Potamotherium, this is 48 rounds, or 5 minutes.

Skills
A Potamotherium has a +2 racial bonus on Balance, Climb and Escape Artist checks.

Potamotheriums have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A Potamotherium can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus for Climb or Swim checks and can take the Run action while swimming (see Agile Swimmer).

xidoraven · Sep 22, 2009

That looks really good as a standard, and I agree not to give it any attacks that aren't agreeable to its past. Is there any evidence or debate over the possibility to endure either extreme warm or cold, or even superior low-light vision (as Giant Owl) because of hunting below water or even possibly hunting at night?

Those are really the only other considerations I would have in mind for it, and I can fiddle with an advanced version if I need to boost one up before I apply the celestial template to it.

Cleon · Sep 23, 2009

xidoraven said:
That looks really good as a standard, and I agree not to give it any attacks that aren't agreeable to its past. Is there any evidence or debate over the possibility to endure either extreme warm or cold, or even superior low-light vision (as Giant Owl) because of hunting below water or even possibly hunting at night?

I don't think they have heat- or cold-resistance potent enough for it to be measurable in D&D terms. Even the Large SRD bears don't get cold resistance, so I don't think our dire otters should.

As for unusual senses, it was my understanding that otters didn't have great night vision, although I can see an argument for giving them very short-range blindsense to represent their whiskers.

xidoraven · Sep 23, 2009

Would whisker-oriented blindsense only be functional underwater? If so, negate any of those arguments and leave it as is. If it deserves a look then I say let's do that - I like every animal to have its niche to claim persistence over many millenia, but not if it is unreasonable.

Cleon · Sep 24, 2009

xidoraven said:
Would whisker-oriented blindsense only be functional underwater? If so, negate any of those arguments and leave it as is. If it deserves a look then I say let's do that - I like every animal to have its niche to claim persistence over many millenia, but not if it is unreasonable.

I'd guess it would probably work in both air and water like standard blindsense. Mammals developed their whiskers on land, after all, and the aquatic ones (seals, otters etc) just adapted them for underwater.

I don't know whether otters' whiskers don't work so well in the air and even if they did, the Potamotherium is a less specialized creature so it may still have "a whisker in both land and water".

So, blindsense 10 feet?