Modifying Under Performing SRD Monsters, or "Building A Better Otyugh"

CR 6 seems alright for the neo-otyugh's CR. And I still love Wield Foe.

demiurge1138 said:

I agree that the dinosaurs need some significant work--that's why I did the World of Kong project! I pretty much consider the "juvenile V. rex" stats as my canon Tyrannosaurus, with a few modifications. Let's take a look, shall we?

Click to expand...

Oh I was thinking along quite a different track. The SRD Tyrannosaurus seems OK to me apart from a poor feat selection, although I agree it could do with a bit more Strength and a few interesting abilities.

However, while it’s perfectly good as a realistic prehistoric animal, where it falls short for me is as a Beast of Primeval Terror.

So, rather than redo the “basic” Tyrannosaurus, I’d like to come up with a version which has those powers from pulp fiction and bad fantasy which give pleasant nightmares to seven year olds throughout the world, that will strike fear in players rather than have them casually curdle your dinosaurs mind with Will-save effects.

I thought about calling this a “Dire Tyrannosaurus” but that had connotations I was a little unhappy with, so I'll call this variant a Primal Tyrannosaurus.

So how about we do two versions of the Tyrannosaurus, demiurge's more realistic Tyrannosaurus and my "Primal Tyrannosaurus"? I could put the SRD Tyrannosaurus stats in my next post, and edit them as we decide on changes.

Here are some ideas for abilities I'd like to see in the Primal Tyrannosaurus, many of which I’ve cribbed off the dinosaur threads on the Pathfinder forums:

The base stats need a bit of tweaking. Improve Strength and Natural Armour?

Change the feats. Toughness × 3 certainly needs swapping for something actually useful.

Are its racial bonus’s for skills OK, or could it do with a bit of a boost?

Give it a kick attack as well as a bite

Damage Resistance? (not much, but enough to protect it from being nickle-and-dimed to death)[not so sure about this]

Improved Grab (to allow subsequent grapple attacks)

Chomp! (can bite opponent in its jaws with a grapple, probably for extra damage.)[Although I could change that to Worry to make it consistent with Demiurge's version]

Festering Jaws (A Tyrannosaurus’s jaws are seething with toxic bacteria and stained with its victims’ decomposing flesh. Bite causes exposure to nasty infection)

Pounce? Lunge? Ambush? Charge? (Can make a double move [or maybe even a Run?] which ends with a bite attack and an Overrun, once per X minutes. Not sure what to call it.)

Swallow Whole (as normal)

Pin Underfoot (again big targets that have been knocked prone, or more modest sized victims. Does damage & immobilises)

Ignore Death (Can keep on fighting for multiple rounds when mortally wounded)

Bestial Will (Can shake off mind-affecting powers that conflict with its instincts)

Roar! (Terrifies creatures with its fearsome bellow)[May have frightful presence as well or instead, as demiurge suggests]

demiurge1138 said:

CR 6 seems alright for the neo-otyugh's CR. And I still love Wield Foe.

Click to expand...

Thanks demiurge, that was my favourite of the Otyugh's Special Attacks, too. So, if you love Wield Foe, do you love Dual-Wield Foes twice as much?

I guess that's it for the Otyughs then, unless anyone spots a stat error?

You might consider making your Primal Tyrannosaur a Magical Beast with an Int of 3--I could definately see a Terror Raptor with an Int of, say, 7, coming out of the same project. I think that pin underfoot is good for a Jurassic Park-y, eating the car feeling, and I like the idea of ferocity enough that I'm going to steal it for my realistic T. rex. Festering jaws I'm not much of a fan of--tyrannosauruses were probably active predators that wouldn't pass up a meal of carrion (think a modern day lion or spotted hyena), not sluggish creatures that would rely on disease and a slow metabolism to kill their prey before starvation set in (like a komodo dragon).

I'm surprised you didn't suggest a frightful presence ability. T. rex was scary.

Here's a stat-boosted, flavor text-given Build A Better Tyrannosaurus

Building a Better Tyrannosaurus rex
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+96 (150 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +10 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+29
Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+18/ 19-20)
Full Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+18/ 19-20)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole, worry 6d6+18
Special Qualities: Ferocity, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +8
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 16, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 11
Skills: Hide +6, Listen +11, Move Silently +10, Spot +11, Survival +9
Feats: Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Iron Will, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Warm forests and plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 13-17 HD (Huge), 18-24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

A monstrous bipedal reptile emerges, its hide crisscrossed with scars. The creature’s head is massive, easily large enough to swallow you whole. Its arms are tiny, barely able to meet across its chest, but are immensely muscular. A long powerful tail sweeps from side to side, balancing it as it moves with surprising speed and grace.

Tyrannosaurus rex, the tyrant lizard king, is among the mightiest of the dinosaurs and one of the greatest natural predators to ever live. A tyrannosaurus is forty feet long and nearly eighteen feet tall at the hip. Females tend to be slightly larger than males.

Tyrannosaurus rex tends to be the apex predator in areas in which they are found. They hunt from ambush, using their keen sense of smell to track prey, then lunging in a powerful burst. They prefer to prey on hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, but if hungry enough will tackle anything living. Tyrannosaurs are not adverse to taking carrion into their diets, and will often use their bulk to scare smaller predators (dromeosaurs, crocodiles and even juvenile tyrannosaurs) from their kills.

Juveniles are precocious predators in their own right, cooperating in small packs to hunt smaller game than the adults, and then separating as they age. A single adult tyrannosaurus can hold a range of ten square miles, overlapping with the ranges of multiple juveniles. Unlike many other dinosaurs, the females are the more sexually aggressive, displaying their power and prowess in order to attract the attention of males. Although T. rex is born with a light covering of insulating down, they shed this as they age and grow.

Combat
Tyrannosaurs are ambush predators, striking without warning and using their surprising speed and stealth to get the jump on prey. They attempt to grapple prey first and foremost, either shaking and raking large prey or swallowing smaller morsels in a single gulp.

Ferocity (Ex): A tyrannosaurus rex is so tenacious a creature that it fights without penalty even when disabled or dying.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, a tyrannosaurus must hit an opponent with its bite attack. If it successfully gets a hold, it can worry or swallow its opponent whole.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A tyrannosaurus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+12 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the tyrannosaur’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A tyrannosaurus’s gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.

Worry (Ex): Each round a tyrannosaurus maintains a grapple, it shakes its prey violently and tears at it with clawed arms and feet, dealing 6d6+9 points of damage.

Skills: Surprisingly stealthy for their size, tyrannosaurus gain a +8 racial bonus on all Hide checks and a +4 racial bonus on all Move Silently checks. They also receive a +4 racial bonus on all Listen, Spot and Survival checks.

demiurge1138 said:

You might consider making your Primal Tyrannosaur a Magical Beast with an Int of 3--I could definately see a Terror Raptor with an Int of, say, 7, coming out of the same project. I think that pin underfoot is good for a Jurassic Park-y, eating the car feeling, and I like the idea of ferocity enough that I'm going to steal it for my realistic T. rex. Festering jaws I'm not much of a fan of--tyrannosauruses were probably active predators that wouldn't pass up a meal of carrion (think a modern day lion or spotted hyena), not sluggish creatures that would rely on disease and a slow metabolism to kill their prey before starvation set in (like a komodo dragon).

I'm surprised you didn't suggest a frightful presence ability. T. rex was scary.

Click to expand...

Blast it, a fear-effect was in my list but got cut off. I'll edit my post to re-insert it.

Anyhows, I'll put the Primal Rex on the back burner for the time being, so we can focus on the more realistic version.

EDIT: My concept for the Ignore Death bother was a "hypercharged" form of ferocity, based on that pulp era trope "The terror dinosaurs' nervous system is so primitive it may not register the death of its body for some time, fighting on despite mortal injury - effectively being 'late to its own funeral'".

I was thinking of giving it Fort saves per round to continue fighting after being killed/knocked unconscious, with the DC increasing with time and excess damage.

EDITED EDIT: Festering Jaws will stay for the time being, I wasn't going for a realism with this version. There's nothing to prevent an active predator having such a talent as a back-up strategy and most carnivores have pretty nasty dental hygiene. Besides which, we don't know for sure Tyrannosaurs didn't have it.

As for the Int 3, that's the opposite to what I was aiming for. I fancy a pulp-type "Dumb, raging appetite on legs" rather than a crafty killer. Although I was thinking about a smarter Velociraptor when we get around to that animal.

Ignore death does sound pretty cool, but the festering jaws still doesn't sit well with me. When have "diseased T. rexes" ever been a trope?

demiurge1138 said:

Ignore death does sound pretty cool, but the festering jaws still doesn't sit well with me. When have "diseased T. rexes" ever been a trope?

Click to expand...

Well it's like this. Quite a few of the more sensational fictions I have read featuring Tyrannosaurs and other theropods have placed some emphasis on their ghastly rancid breath and the shreds of flesh in their fangs, so I fancied giving the Primal Rex an ability that tied in with this. An infectious bite seemed the best option, since many real-world carnivores often cause infected wounds if their targets survive; I've read of both crocodile bites and lion bite and claw wounds resulting in life threatening infections.

Besides which, the only alternative idea I came up with was Combat Halitosis.

I imagine a Primal Tyrannosaurus using its infectious bite to fell Colossal animals like an advanced Brachiosaurus, by biting and waiting for its prey to weaken before finishing it off. A well designed 30-50HD Brachiosaurus should be a foe even a Primal Rex wouldn't want to get in a prolonged melee with, the Tyrannosaurus would likely run out of hit points well before the sauropod.

Now I never meant to imply a Tyrannosaurus is some kind of diseased, half-alive shambling horror (although that would make a cool monster!), and I don't think a poison attack would fit - I fancy a lingering after-effect, rather than something that is significant during melee, where the T rex is already strong enough.

So would it satisfy you if we just renamed the ability to, say, Toxic Bite but kept the same mechanics?

Anyhow, would you mind if we hold off on any more discussion of the Primal Rex so we can concentrate on your version, if only to prevent confusion as to whose Tyrannosaurus we're talking about.

demiurge1138 said:

Building a Better Tyrannosaurus rex
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+96 (150 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +10 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+29
Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+18/ 19-20)
Full Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+18/ 19-20)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole, worry 6d6+18
Special Qualities: Ferocity, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +8
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 16, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 11
Skills: Hide +6, Listen +11, Move Silently +10, Spot +11, Survival +9
Feats: Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Iron Will, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Warm forests and plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 13-17 HD (Huge), 18-24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

Click to expand...

Very nice, I liked your World of Kong writeups, so we've got a strong foundation.

Firstly, I approve of the change in Hit Dice. The AD&D versions of the Tyrannosaurus was at the upper end of their size range (50', since at the time they though the animal was longer than current reconstructions), and while 18HD is appropriate for an advanced animal like that it is too much for a averaged-sized realistic version of a T rex, not to mention the 50' version should be Gargantuan.

The +10 natural armour seems unrealistic, but forgivable. The SRD rex's +5 is likely closer to reality but it gives the Tyrannosaurus an AC that is effectively ignorable by PCs of its Challenge Rating.

The feats look fine, but does it really need Improved Critical (bite)? We can just artibrarily give its bite a 19-20 critical, or give it the feat as a Bonus Feat, which could be justifiable based on its jaws' terrible strength. That would free room for another feat. I'd be tempted by Combat Reflexes for the extra opportunity of attack.

The only other issue I have is the ability scores seem a bit off, the Con and Dex are a little higher than I'd like.

If I backwards-engineer the Tyrannosaurus to Medium Size, such a pygmy rex would have Str 18, Dex 20, Con 18. That doesn't seem right, I'd go for Str 20, Dex 18, Con 15 for this hypothetical Medium Rex, so a Huge one would be Str 36, Dex 14, Con 23.

While we're on the subject of size, shall we do compact stat-blocks for immature and advanced versions? It'd be easy enough for me to whip them up, something like:

Baby Rex: Small, 2HD, Str 16, NA +5, Dex 19, Con 13.
Infant Rex: Medium, 3HD, Str 20, NA +5, Dex 18, Con 15.
Juvenile Rex: Medium, 4-5HD, Str NA +6, 24, Dex 16, Con 17.
Adolescent Rex: Large, 6-8HD, Str NA +7, 28, Dex 16, Con 19.
Big Adolescent Rex: Large, 9-11HD, NA +8, Str 32, Dex 15, Con 21.
Young Adult Rex: Huge, 12-14HD, NA +10, Str 36, Dex 14, Con 23.
Mature Adult Rex: Huge, 15-17HD, NA +12, Str 40, Dex 13, Con 25.
Big Adult Rex: Gargantuan, 18-23HD, NA +14, Str 44, Dex 12, Con 28.
Great Adult Rex (maximised): Gargantuan, 24HD, NA +16?, Str 48?, Dex 12?, Con 30?, Wis 16?.

I gave stat increases for extra HD to the Big Adult (+1 Con) and Great Adult (+1 Dex, +1 Wis), but did not remove any from the smaller ones.

Oh, while we're on the subject of size I would like to tweak that section of the descriptive text a little, something like:

OK, now for the special attacks.

demiurge1138 said:

Ferocity (Ex): A tyrannosaurus rex is so tenacious a creature that it fights without penalty even when disabled or dying.

Click to expand...

It never occurred to me that Ignore Death would be the proposed Primal Rex ability that would inspire you.

While there's nothing wrong with it mechanically I'm not so sure it's right for a realistic Tyrannosaurus. We've got no reason to suspect they're any tougher than other predators. Might as well keep it, it doesn't make much different at that challenge rating since zero to -10 hp is such a narrow window for it to get any benefit from the ability.

I'd have thought you'd prefer Pin Underfoot. How about adding that? I'll write up a proposal and post it.

demiurge1138 said:

Swallow Whole (Ex): A tyrannosaurus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+12 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the tyrannosaur’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A tyrannosaurus’s gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.

Click to expand...

I really like the suggestion I saw on the Pathfinder forums that monsters spit out swallowed foes that damage it rather than they carve themselves out of their body. Could we modify the text to allow for that?

demiurge1138 said:

Worry (Ex): Each round a tyrannosaurus maintains a grapple, it shakes its prey violently and tears at it with clawed arms and feet, dealing 6d6+9 points of damage.

Click to expand...

Shouldn't the damage be 6d6+18 like it is in the Special Attacks line?