D&D 5E Why Are Ability Scores Necessary?

[Haldrik]

Maybe conslidating the abilities might help.

. Size (Constitution, Strength bonus)
. Athletics-Dexterity
. Perception-Intelligence
. Willpower-Charisma

In this case, the Wizard and Druid are definitely Perception-Intelligence, while the Cleric and Bard are definitely Willpower-Charisma.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I just get frustrated because when I avoid concrete examples I have communication breakdowns with people, and when I use one people fixate on the example and ignore the point, premise, questions, etc, of the thread.

I feel your pain. It's a constant struggle. And when I try instead for option C, by saying that I have my own example, but not using it because want to see what others have to say first without my example influencing it, I think people get somehow suspicious about my motives.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Maybe conslidating the abilities might help.

. Size (Constitution, Strength bonus)
. Athletics-Dexterity
. Perception-Intelligence
. Willpower-Charisma

In this case, the Wizard and Druid are definitely Perception-Intelligence, while the Cleric and Bard are definitely Willpower-Charisma.

I get where you're coming from, here, but I really dislike that. If different spellcasters are using different stats, I'd rather just keep the game as it is.

Another poster had a whole thread about consolidating the stats in such a manner, and I really strongly disliked just about everything about it. A 3 stat setup like The One Ring (Body, Heart, Mind, IIRC) can work well, but trying to have multiple casting stats and multiple physical action stats just leaves the game essentially in the same exact place it is now, but with less familiarity.

I feel your pain. It's a constant struggle. And when I try instead for option C, by saying that I have my own example, but not using it because want to see what others have to say first without my example influencing it, I think people get somehow suspicious about my motives.

Yeah, it's...really hard to figure out.

 

[Campbell]

I would definitely make Nature and Religion based on Wisdom.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What issue -- the only issue you've actually mentioned is multiclassing.


I don't know what your options are meant to fix.

Yeah, you're confirming that you aren't actually reading my posts.

You say compatibility is "entirely unchanged," but this is trivially easy to show as incorrect. If I have a monster with STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, and CHA scores, which do I use for a Heart save? Is that Charisma, which covers strength of character, or Wisdom, which covers mental fortitude? I dunno. Further, there are hundreds of monsters, each of which would have to be evaluated on theme and existing scores to determine what the new roll-up score would be. Each would have to be evaluated this way and changed if used. That makes my Monster Manual incompatible with play until I do the conversion.

So, you didn't read where, in a reply to you, I said that monsters would just...not use the new player character ability scores? Because they don't need to use the same stats are player characters?

I'm done engaging with you for a while. Your every reply shows direct signs of either not reading or ignoring things I've said, and I'm rather tired of it. I believe we've had fairly positive interactions before, but in this particular thread, our interaction isn't going anywhere, and I'm not going to keep trying to figure out why.

Please don't reply to me further, here.

 

[Haldrik]

If the goal is to eliminate abilities completely, then I would just use a flat +2 bonus for all six abilities, and be done with it.

Use feats, and dont ability score improvements.

Or if you really want the big bonus numbers, go by tier:

• levels 1-4: +2
• levels 5-10: +3
• levels 11-16: +4
• levels 17-20: +5 (all six abilities)

It might need some tweaking, but balancewise it should be fine.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I deeply dislike ability scores. While pretending to enhance your character concept, instead they straitjacket it, and they add a lot of unnecessary math and introduce "trap options" for inexperienced players. They were a bad idea in 1E and they are a bad idea now, and the only reason they persist is their extreme sacred cowness.

I have taken a stab at eliminating ability scores from D&D. There is no systemic obstacle to it--nothing in the core game engine really requires ability scores. The problem is all the zillions of references to ability scores that have to be examined and removed. I concluded it wasn't worth the effort for me personally, but I'd be very interested if some enterprising third-party publisher made a 5E clone with ability scores excised.

The essence of my approach was to fold ability scores into proficiency. Instead of starting at +2 and going to +6, your proficiency bonus starts at +5 and goes to +9. When you would get an ASI, you can instead choose between a feat and +1 to your proficiency bonus; you can't increase your bonus more than twice this way. (This mimics the progression of starting with a 16 in your primary stat and increasing it up to 20.)

With this system, there are two ways to roll a d20: With proficiency or without. When you make an attack roll, if you are proficient with the weapon, you roll 1d20 + proficiency; otherwise it's a straight 1d20 roll. Likewise for skills. For saving throws, I would be inclined to go back to Fort/Ref/Will, which is simpler and avoids the nuisance of "major saves and minor saves."

But then there are all the little nuisances:

• You need a weapon damage modifier to replace the stat bonus. This might come from your class, perhaps. Or it could be built into the base damage of the weapon.
• All classes will probably need a hit die boost, since they no longer have access to bonus hit points from Con.
• Armor is currently designed so that high-Dex characters favor light armor and high-Str characters favor heavy armor. Obviously this does not work if Dex and Str don't exist, so you'd need another way to calculate AC.
• Expertise is now way better. The easy solution is to cut it in half: Expertise adds 50% of your proficiency bonus instead of 100%.
• What do you do with feats that grant +1 to an ability score?
• All the gazillions of class and subclass abilities that refer to ability scores have to be replaced.
• Calculating encumbrance.
• Etc.

Probably you just abstract the ability scores instead, to physical, mental, and interaction, or something. As abstract as possible. So, you can assign a primary stat, secondary, and tertiary, with 3 different modifiers, and plug those mod numbers into the system in place of current ability score modifiers. Basically, keep the math mostly intact, but not the restrictions and such related to them. You don't decide if you are finesse or force based in attacks, you just decide if your spellcasting (mental) or weapons (physical) is your primary thing, and go from there.

But it might be easier to only go halfway to that, and work with something like the aforementioned body, heart, will, instead. Basically the same thing, but with more guidance and less arbitraryness to what governs what.

Either way, there is a number there that proficiency gets added to, so we don't have to rework all the game's math, feats, etc.

Just some noodling:

If “ability” scores are reconceived to cover actions, rather than attributes, then maybe we can add Traits that model natural gifts.

Example. You don’t have ability scores as you know them. Instead you have three Action Scores (whatever, just lend me a little license for a sec) and they are Combat, Exploration, and Interaction. And let’s say that the class you pick gives you your starting Scores in each and they’re maybe modified by your background. A Fighter might have base scores of Combat 16, Exploration 10, and Interaction 10. The fighter takes the Sage background and gains a +2 in either Exploration or Interaction. For traits, perhaps we pick some options off a list that’s determined by race, background, and class. Maybe like 2 options. Our fighter picks “Strong” and “Smart”. Whenever the adventurer makes a roll that relies on their Strength or Intelligence, they get a bonus d4 or something.

So this Strong, Smart Fighter-Sage uses melee weapons in combat because they’re strong and get a bonus. While Exploring, they tend to think things through and deliberate. And when Interacting, they tend to use logic and facts to appeal to reason.

I guess you get your proficiency bonus if you have a relevant skill, too.

Perhaps we do need ability scores for saving throws? But we could probably take Fort, Reflex, and Will and drop those back in without too many complications.

Anyway, I think moving away from abilities and toward capabilities might be the way to address the incongruence you’re experiencing.

That is a really interesting idea that I'd love to explore more.

I would definitely make Nature and Religion based on Wisdom.

Yeah, if the solutions ends up not being to get rid of the scores or reduce them or whatever, I would probably instead simply allow pretty much any mental stat to be subbed for any other mental stat, adn the same for physical stats, or something like that, for skills, as part of the solution.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If the goal is to eliminate abilities completely, then I would just use a flat +2 bonus for all six abilities, and be done with it.

Use feats, and dont ability score improvements.

Or if you really want the big bonus numbers, go by tier:

• levels 1-4: +2
• levels 5-10: +3
• levels 11-16: +4
• levels 17-20: +5 (all six abilities)

It might need some tweaking, but balancewise it should be fine.

I dig the simplicity, but I think that differentiation and just...having different numbers, as such, is important to the feel of the game. The paladin doesn't cast as well as the cleric, because the cleric's main stat is wisdom and the paladin's is strength. That supports the feel of the classes. Now, the wisdom and strength aren't important, there, IMO. It's the variance in competency that matters. The cleric is more powerful magically, while the paladin is a better warrior. The fact that this tends to be true all the way down to how hard it is to resist their spells, IMO, is part of what makes the two classes feel right side by side.

 

[Haldrik]

I dig the simplicity, but I think that differentiation and just...having different numbers, as such, is important to the feel of the game. The paladin doesn't cast as well as the cleric, because the cleric's main stat is wisdom and the paladin's is strength. That supports the feel of the classes. Now, the wisdom and strength aren't important, there, IMO. It's the variance in competency that matters. The cleric is more powerful magically, while the paladin is a better warrior. The fact that this tends to be true all the way down to how hard it is to resist their spells, IMO, is part of what makes the two classes feel right side by side.

If I am understanding you correctly, then perhaps there are just two abilities.

Physical (Str=Dex=Con)
Mental (Int=Wis=Cha)

So:

• Levels 1-4: +2 primary, +1 secondary
• Levels 5-10: +3 primary, +1 secondary
• Levels 11-16: +4 primary, +2 secondary
• Levels 17-20: +5 primary, +2 secondary

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If I am understanding you correctly, then perhaps there are just two abilities.

Physical (Str=Dex=Con)
Mental (Int=Wis=Cha)

So:

• Levels 1-4: +2 primary, +1 secondary
• Levels 5-10: +3 primary, +1 secondary
• Levels 11-16: +4 primary, +2 secondary
• Levels 17-20: +5 primary, +2 secondary

Could do two. I've never seen that in a system, but it could work.

I'll think on this whole discussion more tomorrow.