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Worlds of Design: Reassessing Tolkien’s Influence
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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 9206754" data-attributes="member: 23751"><p>Some of the ideas in the OP I disagree with.</p><p></p><p>"What evidently hasn’t influenced RPGs at all is the <strong>low-magic levels of Middle-earth</strong>. Magic items are just about non-existent. Spell-casters are just about non-existent. An inhabitant may hear of such things, but actually getting involved with one in any way, even just to see it, is nearly unheard of. In the USA today you’re as likely to see the President of the United States up close and personal as to see a magic-user in person in Middle-earth. Similarly, you’re more likely to see a gold bar in the USA than to see a magic item in Middle-earth."</p><p></p><p>The magic levels of Middle Earth were not as low as a lot of people think. </p><p></p><p>In the Hobbit they find three magic weapons, a suit of magic armor, the local bowman has a magic dragon slaying arrow, an artifact ring of invisibility and there's a wizard.</p><p></p><p>In the Lord of the Rings there are multiple cloaks of elvenkind, boots of elvenkind, a magic vial of holy light, a crystal ball, a magical boat, magical earth, a magical rope, a minimum of three magic swords, a magic short sword/dagger, a magical suit of armor, a magical seeing pool, 13 magical rings of power, a magical horn, two wizards, a spellcasting elf queen, a spellcasting elf lord, and Gandalf's statement that shows that magic outside of the Istari was much more prevalent than folks give Middle Earth credit for.</p><p></p><p>"‘I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind."</p><p></p><p>I mean, even orcs had spellcasters! And there are at least 200 different spells of opening alone that were created by spellscasters outside of the Istari. I'm sure many more people encountered spellcasters in Middle Earth than Americans meet presidents.</p><p></p><p>Back to magic items. The Noldor created thousands of magical crystals and tens or hundreds of thousands of magical weapons and suits of armor, as did the dwarves who were more skilled than all but the best Noldor weaponsmiths. Huge numbers of those were lost in major battles. Glamdring, Sting and Foehammer were just a few of the swords forged in Gondolin, which housed a small fraction of the elven folk who originally travelled to Middle Earth from Aman. We also know that elves create other magic items from the gifts Galadriel gave to the Fellowship. </p><p></p><p>To think that magic items and spellcasters don't abound in Middle Earth is shortsighted given what we know. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Tolkien’s <strong>lack of organized religion, and of “gods” that interfere </strong>hasn’t been an influence. Gods that manifest in the world, if only through the spells of clerics/priests, are common in RPGs, perhaps heavily influenced by D&D. Gods that interfere in the “real world” are also common from what I hear of RPG campaigns (something I don’t use myself)."</p><p></p><p>The Valar and Maiar interfered a number of times. While the Valar were not gods in Middle Earth, the did hold the power level of D&D gods along with D&D godlike portfolios.</p><h2></h2><p></p><p><strong>"Group Quest</strong>. Early science fiction and fantasy was dominated by a single protagonist hero, or hero and sidekick. Tolkien’s main books depicted quests by groups of characters rather than by individuals. How much this actually influenced RPGs, I have no idea."</p><p></p><p>I disagree with this depiction of Tolkien as well. </p><p></p><p>The quest was Frodo's and Frodo's alone to take the ring to Mordor. The others went to along to aid him in his quest. Eaerendel was given the quest to go to Valinor to get the Valar to help the elves and men. Beren was alone given the quest to recover a Silmaril. Turin(with yet another magic sword) was primarily a solo adventurer. </p><p></p><p>Looking back, the only real group quest I can remember was in the Hobbit. The 13 dwarves and Bilbo had a shared quest.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 9206754, member: 23751"] Some of the ideas in the OP I disagree with. "What evidently hasn’t influenced RPGs at all is the [B]low-magic levels of Middle-earth[/B]. Magic items are just about non-existent. Spell-casters are just about non-existent. An inhabitant may hear of such things, but actually getting involved with one in any way, even just to see it, is nearly unheard of. In the USA today you’re as likely to see the President of the United States up close and personal as to see a magic-user in person in Middle-earth. Similarly, you’re more likely to see a gold bar in the USA than to see a magic item in Middle-earth." The magic levels of Middle Earth were not as low as a lot of people think. In the Hobbit they find three magic weapons, a suit of magic armor, the local bowman has a magic dragon slaying arrow, an artifact ring of invisibility and there's a wizard. In the Lord of the Rings there are multiple cloaks of elvenkind, boots of elvenkind, a magic vial of holy light, a crystal ball, a magical boat, magical earth, a magical rope, a minimum of three magic swords, a magic short sword/dagger, a magical suit of armor, a magical seeing pool, 13 magical rings of power, a magical horn, two wizards, a spellcasting elf queen, a spellcasting elf lord, and Gandalf's statement that shows that magic outside of the Istari was much more prevalent than folks give Middle Earth credit for. "‘I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind." I mean, even orcs had spellcasters! And there are at least 200 different spells of opening alone that were created by spellscasters outside of the Istari. I'm sure many more people encountered spellcasters in Middle Earth than Americans meet presidents. Back to magic items. The Noldor created thousands of magical crystals and tens or hundreds of thousands of magical weapons and suits of armor, as did the dwarves who were more skilled than all but the best Noldor weaponsmiths. Huge numbers of those were lost in major battles. Glamdring, Sting and Foehammer were just a few of the swords forged in Gondolin, which housed a small fraction of the elven folk who originally travelled to Middle Earth from Aman. We also know that elves create other magic items from the gifts Galadriel gave to the Fellowship. To think that magic items and spellcasters don't abound in Middle Earth is shortsighted given what we know. "Tolkien’s [B]lack of organized religion, and of “gods” that interfere [/B]hasn’t been an influence. Gods that manifest in the world, if only through the spells of clerics/priests, are common in RPGs, perhaps heavily influenced by D&D. Gods that interfere in the “real world” are also common from what I hear of RPG campaigns (something I don’t use myself)." The Valar and Maiar interfered a number of times. While the Valar were not gods in Middle Earth, the did hold the power level of D&D gods along with D&D godlike portfolios. [HEADING=1][/HEADING] [B]"Group Quest[/B]. Early science fiction and fantasy was dominated by a single protagonist hero, or hero and sidekick. Tolkien’s main books depicted quests by groups of characters rather than by individuals. How much this actually influenced RPGs, I have no idea." I disagree with this depiction of Tolkien as well. The quest was Frodo's and Frodo's alone to take the ring to Mordor. The others went to along to aid him in his quest. Eaerendel was given the quest to go to Valinor to get the Valar to help the elves and men. Beren was alone given the quest to recover a Silmaril. Turin(with yet another magic sword) was primarily a solo adventurer. Looking back, the only real group quest I can remember was in the Hobbit. The 13 dwarves and Bilbo had a shared quest. [/QUOTE]
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