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Worlds of Design: Leveling vs. Training
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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 8869196" data-attributes="member: 6877472"><p>Maybe. Or maybe leveling up has never made any sense at all. Think about it.</p><p></p><p>As you use your skills in real life, you get better at them, but only to a point. Some people struggle at different tasks and always will. Others struggle, but have an "epiphany" where it clicks. Others learn super easily.</p><p></p><p>D&D averages this out to have everyone advance at the same rate, provided they accomplish the same tasks (this wasn't always the case, see AD&D, though the rates the different classes advanced was completely arbitrary, with the class who fights good advancing slower than the class that was entirely devoted to learning the ins and outs of complex mechanical devices and physical skills, and the class that trended towards it's members having the highest Intelligence advancing the slowest).</p><p></p><p>Some classes seem like they really should require training to get new abilities, while others have such basic abilities that you could easily see them improving through use. Most of what the Rogue does should be the result of experience in the field, for example.</p><p></p><p>But the Arcane Trickster suddenly being able to cast 1st-level spells out of nowhere can seem suspect.</p><p></p><p>But what's really confusing is the xp system. So I can fight 30 Hobgoblins, and after completing the encounter where I defeat the 31st Hobgoblin, the game can decide I gain: more hit points, better proficiency bonus, a Feat OR ability score increase (meaning that working out at the gym to get stronger takes the same effort as gaining the ability to cast some cantrips and a 1st-level spell or becoming a skilled paramedic, or becoming a Michelin-star chef?), 2 new spells, a new spell slot, a class or subclass ability- all depending on what level it is.</p><p></p><p>And I don't have a choice in the matter either. If I'm a Fighter, upon hitting 9th level, I'm getting Indomitable. Do I want it? Would I rather have an ASI or another Fighting Style? Sorry, you don't get to choose.</p><p></p><p>Which yeah, I get it, this is for simplicity- D&D is a level based game, and doesn't allow for individual traits leveling on their own, nor am I saying it should (I happen to like how players can't accidentally spend their xp in strange ways or become crippingly overspecialized, like say in Vampire), but it is <strong>weird</strong>.</p><p></p><p>Very little about it makes any sense, it's all an abstraction. Every bit of it. And yet, time and again, people will notice one aspect of this process as not making sense, and want to fix it, or try and make it logical- you need training, you have to return to civilization, you must pay gold- any number of things that will never really do more than complicate the game, and not really address the differences in how classes gain their powers.</p><p></p><p>A Wizard needs to study scraps of arcane lore. But a Sorcerer doesn't. So does it make sense that both have to train equally? Or how about the guy who acquired Warlock powers after talking to a shady cultist in a back alley? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.</p><p></p><p>There is however, another way to look at this.</p><p></p><p>The old Kung Fu series showed our Monk protagonist on this epic journey across the Old West. As time goes on, he develops new abilities and overcomes new challenges as they occur. In a D&D sense, he is "leveling up". And through flashbacks, we are shown that he received all of this training as a child and a young man, but it's only by going out and doing, gaining real world experience using these skills, that he learns to apply these lessons.</p><p></p><p>So maybe, after completing their apprenticeship, basic training, or what have you, most of the lessons a character might need to use their class abilities have already been achieved, they just need to learn how to apply them in the field.</p><p></p><p>To me, at least, it would make a little bit of sense as to why their progression track is locked in "so when you reach level 9, you will learn Indomitable, because that's what you were trained to do long ago".</p><p></p><p>Of course, multiclassing throws that all out the window. Maybe. I mean, if your party has a Wizard, maybe multiclassing as a Wizard doesn't seem out of bounds. But if there's nary a Wizard in sight, then what?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 8869196, member: 6877472"] Maybe. Or maybe leveling up has never made any sense at all. Think about it. As you use your skills in real life, you get better at them, but only to a point. Some people struggle at different tasks and always will. Others struggle, but have an "epiphany" where it clicks. Others learn super easily. D&D averages this out to have everyone advance at the same rate, provided they accomplish the same tasks (this wasn't always the case, see AD&D, though the rates the different classes advanced was completely arbitrary, with the class who fights good advancing slower than the class that was entirely devoted to learning the ins and outs of complex mechanical devices and physical skills, and the class that trended towards it's members having the highest Intelligence advancing the slowest). Some classes seem like they really should require training to get new abilities, while others have such basic abilities that you could easily see them improving through use. Most of what the Rogue does should be the result of experience in the field, for example. But the Arcane Trickster suddenly being able to cast 1st-level spells out of nowhere can seem suspect. But what's really confusing is the xp system. So I can fight 30 Hobgoblins, and after completing the encounter where I defeat the 31st Hobgoblin, the game can decide I gain: more hit points, better proficiency bonus, a Feat OR ability score increase (meaning that working out at the gym to get stronger takes the same effort as gaining the ability to cast some cantrips and a 1st-level spell or becoming a skilled paramedic, or becoming a Michelin-star chef?), 2 new spells, a new spell slot, a class or subclass ability- all depending on what level it is. And I don't have a choice in the matter either. If I'm a Fighter, upon hitting 9th level, I'm getting Indomitable. Do I want it? Would I rather have an ASI or another Fighting Style? Sorry, you don't get to choose. Which yeah, I get it, this is for simplicity- D&D is a level based game, and doesn't allow for individual traits leveling on their own, nor am I saying it should (I happen to like how players can't accidentally spend their xp in strange ways or become crippingly overspecialized, like say in Vampire), but it is [B]weird[/B]. Very little about it makes any sense, it's all an abstraction. Every bit of it. And yet, time and again, people will notice one aspect of this process as not making sense, and want to fix it, or try and make it logical- you need training, you have to return to civilization, you must pay gold- any number of things that will never really do more than complicate the game, and not really address the differences in how classes gain their powers. A Wizard needs to study scraps of arcane lore. But a Sorcerer doesn't. So does it make sense that both have to train equally? Or how about the guy who acquired Warlock powers after talking to a shady cultist in a back alley? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. There is however, another way to look at this. The old Kung Fu series showed our Monk protagonist on this epic journey across the Old West. As time goes on, he develops new abilities and overcomes new challenges as they occur. In a D&D sense, he is "leveling up". And through flashbacks, we are shown that he received all of this training as a child and a young man, but it's only by going out and doing, gaining real world experience using these skills, that he learns to apply these lessons. So maybe, after completing their apprenticeship, basic training, or what have you, most of the lessons a character might need to use their class abilities have already been achieved, they just need to learn how to apply them in the field. To me, at least, it would make a little bit of sense as to why their progression track is locked in "so when you reach level 9, you will learn Indomitable, because that's what you were trained to do long ago". Of course, multiclassing throws that all out the window. Maybe. I mean, if your party has a Wizard, maybe multiclassing as a Wizard doesn't seem out of bounds. But if there's nary a Wizard in sight, then what? [/QUOTE]
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