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Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Why is non-magical flying so limited for PCs?
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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9306348" data-attributes="member: 6877472"><p>Cats can kill birds. You gotta land sometime!</p><p></p><p>I mean I get it. It's not that fliers are magically immune to every combat or exploration challenge. But there are going to be times where "yeah, but I can fly" is the response from the player when the DM doesn't want it to be that easy.</p><p></p><p>Specialized builds require specialized responses, and it's simply not fair to employ those all the time. I have this friend who, every time he plays, decides to make these ultra-specialized builds that are difficult to deal with without specifically targeting his weak points. Which is obnoxious, because I don't want to have to do that- if his AC is too high, I can't just use enemies who have higher attack bonuses, because then the rest of the party gets shredded. If he has a weak save, it's not right to target that more than occasionally.</p><p></p><p>I'm always very careful to design encounters around the capabilities of the whole party, not one character. But one time, this came to a head where the party was separated and his character was able to solo pretty much an entire dungeon as a result, and that was extremely frustrating.</p><p></p><p>So yeah, I know from experience how a flying character can cause this sort of havoc. But what I've been saying this whole time is that this scenario isn't limited to flight. There are lots of ways a character can be built that will cause this sort of issue, be it that guy with too much AC or mobility, the character that simply does way more damage than his peers, or the joker with Devil's Sight who keeps reminding you that darkness isn't going to serve any real purpose in the game.</p><p></p><p>Heck, I once, quite by accident, ruined an adventure where we had to deal with Duergar assassins simply because I owned a Robe of Eyes and could see invisible foes, and the mod hadn't been written with that as being a possibility!</p><p></p><p>Nerfing or banning flying may seem like an easy solution, but DM's are going to have to engage with these kinds of phenomenon, and you probably shouldn't nerf or ban everything the players come up with.</p><p></p><p>Knew a guy once who thought himself a game designer, and would often add crazy homebrew options to his game. If you tried to point out potential issues, he'd get annoyed, taking it as a personal attack on his creativity (I guess).</p><p></p><p>But if you actually made a character to do something interesting, he'd instantly nerf it saying "well, that wasn't intended". After awhile, he was complaining that nobody wanted to use his "cool options". I finally had to tell him, "My man, the problem is, your options are only cool until they're actually used."</p><p></p><p>Like he once made a custom Pathfinder race that had a bonus Feat and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and saw nothing wrong with it...until three people chose that race and suddenly had AC's too high for him to deal with. </p><p></p><p>I'm not saying that he shouldn't have fixed that, of course, lol- it was obviously too good (curse the Advanced Race Guide), but he didn't even try to engage with it.</p><p></p><p>I just think that situations like this are a learning moment for every DM. I mean, flying creatures and humanoids exist in the setting. How have they not taken over the world, due to their superior mobility? How is melee combat still a thing? How are feral melee monsters still a threat?</p><p></p><p>It's like every time a player of mine comes up with a goofy way to use a spell. I let them have fun for awhile, but eventually someone will have a countermeasure, and when they squawk, I just smile at them and say, "What, do you think you're the first person to have ever thought of doing this in the world?".</p><p></p><p>And maybe that approach isn't for everyone. But we shouldn't presume that something like a flying PC or whatever is going to automatically break the game in half. There is a possibility that it might lead to the game becoming more interesting as well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 9306348, member: 6877472"] Cats can kill birds. You gotta land sometime! I mean I get it. It's not that fliers are magically immune to every combat or exploration challenge. But there are going to be times where "yeah, but I can fly" is the response from the player when the DM doesn't want it to be that easy. Specialized builds require specialized responses, and it's simply not fair to employ those all the time. I have this friend who, every time he plays, decides to make these ultra-specialized builds that are difficult to deal with without specifically targeting his weak points. Which is obnoxious, because I don't want to have to do that- if his AC is too high, I can't just use enemies who have higher attack bonuses, because then the rest of the party gets shredded. If he has a weak save, it's not right to target that more than occasionally. I'm always very careful to design encounters around the capabilities of the whole party, not one character. But one time, this came to a head where the party was separated and his character was able to solo pretty much an entire dungeon as a result, and that was extremely frustrating. So yeah, I know from experience how a flying character can cause this sort of havoc. But what I've been saying this whole time is that this scenario isn't limited to flight. There are lots of ways a character can be built that will cause this sort of issue, be it that guy with too much AC or mobility, the character that simply does way more damage than his peers, or the joker with Devil's Sight who keeps reminding you that darkness isn't going to serve any real purpose in the game. Heck, I once, quite by accident, ruined an adventure where we had to deal with Duergar assassins simply because I owned a Robe of Eyes and could see invisible foes, and the mod hadn't been written with that as being a possibility! Nerfing or banning flying may seem like an easy solution, but DM's are going to have to engage with these kinds of phenomenon, and you probably shouldn't nerf or ban everything the players come up with. Knew a guy once who thought himself a game designer, and would often add crazy homebrew options to his game. If you tried to point out potential issues, he'd get annoyed, taking it as a personal attack on his creativity (I guess). But if you actually made a character to do something interesting, he'd instantly nerf it saying "well, that wasn't intended". After awhile, he was complaining that nobody wanted to use his "cool options". I finally had to tell him, "My man, the problem is, your options are only cool until they're actually used." Like he once made a custom Pathfinder race that had a bonus Feat and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and saw nothing wrong with it...until three people chose that race and suddenly had AC's too high for him to deal with. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have fixed that, of course, lol- it was obviously too good (curse the Advanced Race Guide), but he didn't even try to engage with it. I just think that situations like this are a learning moment for every DM. I mean, flying creatures and humanoids exist in the setting. How have they not taken over the world, due to their superior mobility? How is melee combat still a thing? How are feral melee monsters still a threat? It's like every time a player of mine comes up with a goofy way to use a spell. I let them have fun for awhile, but eventually someone will have a countermeasure, and when they squawk, I just smile at them and say, "What, do you think you're the first person to have ever thought of doing this in the world?". And maybe that approach isn't for everyone. But we shouldn't presume that something like a flying PC or whatever is going to automatically break the game in half. There is a possibility that it might lead to the game becoming more interesting as well. [/QUOTE]
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Why is non-magical flying so limited for PCs?
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