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Why do Wizard hot dogs come in packages of 9, but Cleric buns come in packages of 7?
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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8844072" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-history-101-origins-of-classes.673131/[/URL]</p><p></p><p>Going back to seriously address the OP ( [USER=57112]@Gradine[/USER] ). I've been thinking about this for a while, as I don't recall ever seeing a definitive answer to this question. What I do want to stress (as someone who was familiar with the era) is that it just seemed <em>natural</em> at the time.</p><p></p><p>I'm going to speculate a little, from a few different thoughts.</p><p></p><p>First, Gygaxian D&D (OD&D and 1e) wasn't about standardization. Things were created organically through the accretion of rules, and not through some kind of master attempt at balance with a lot of modern playtesting. So I don't think that anyone really sat down and was like, "Hey, some casters go to 7, and some go to 9."</p><p></p><p><em>That said</em>, it is certainly true that Clerics (and Druids) were good in combat. Unlike the pathetically weak Magic User, Clerics (and to a lesser extent, Druids) were your second-line fighters. Their spells shouldn't be as powerful as Magic Users. In addition to just going to 7th level, they didn't have the utility or breadth or signature combat spells (fireball and lightning bolt and magic missile and sleep) that Magic Users had.</p><p></p><p>But to give you an idea of the difference- a MU had <strong>78</strong> spells to choose from between 1st and 3rd level, and <strong>150</strong> spells to choose from between 1st and sixth level. Clerics and Druids could choose between <strong>36</strong> spells between 1st and 3rd level and <strong>66 </strong>spells through 6th level. </p><p></p><p>Looking back, though, the real question isn't about Magic Users ... it's about <em>Illusionists</em>. Illusionists suffered under all the same combat disabilities as Magic Users, they were magic specialists, but they also were capped at 7th level. More importantly, they had <em>even less choice</em> that did Clerics and Druids. Sure, they also had 36 spells between 1st and 3rd level, but they only <strong>60 </strong>spells through 6th level. Heck, one of the seventh level Illusionist spells (one of the SIX they could choose from) was First Level Magic User spells .... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> That's right, you could Alter Reality, or you could gain all the power of a first level MU.</p><p></p><p>I think that what we see is that there was a <em>de facto </em>cap of 7th level for spellcasters that weren't MUs. This happened in Dragon Magazine as well for the NPC classes- the Incantrix, literally the "anti-MU," was capped at 7th level spells (and couldn't learn their 7th level spell until 17th level, the same time that a MU had 2 8th level spells).</p><p></p><p>This may also have been an artifact of the separated spell lists- one great advantage of having unique spells lists for each class that each spellcasting class truly felt different. One disadvantage is that ... well, making lots of spells is hard! If they wanted to create a brand-new spellcaster, they'd have to create a lot of brand-new spells. It was easier to just go to 7, I guess. </p><p></p><p>Like a lot of the early rules, I think that the unsatisfying explanation is ... that's just the way they were.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 8844072, member: 7023840"] Yes. [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-history-101-origins-of-classes.673131/[/URL] Going back to seriously address the OP ( [USER=57112]@Gradine[/USER] ). I've been thinking about this for a while, as I don't recall ever seeing a definitive answer to this question. What I do want to stress (as someone who was familiar with the era) is that it just seemed [I]natural[/I] at the time. I'm going to speculate a little, from a few different thoughts. First, Gygaxian D&D (OD&D and 1e) wasn't about standardization. Things were created organically through the accretion of rules, and not through some kind of master attempt at balance with a lot of modern playtesting. So I don't think that anyone really sat down and was like, "Hey, some casters go to 7, and some go to 9." [I]That said[/I], it is certainly true that Clerics (and Druids) were good in combat. Unlike the pathetically weak Magic User, Clerics (and to a lesser extent, Druids) were your second-line fighters. Their spells shouldn't be as powerful as Magic Users. In addition to just going to 7th level, they didn't have the utility or breadth or signature combat spells (fireball and lightning bolt and magic missile and sleep) that Magic Users had. But to give you an idea of the difference- a MU had [B]78[/B] spells to choose from between 1st and 3rd level, and [B]150[/B] spells to choose from between 1st and sixth level. Clerics and Druids could choose between [B]36[/B] spells between 1st and 3rd level and [B]66 [/B]spells through 6th level. Looking back, though, the real question isn't about Magic Users ... it's about [I]Illusionists[/I]. Illusionists suffered under all the same combat disabilities as Magic Users, they were magic specialists, but they also were capped at 7th level. More importantly, they had [I]even less choice[/I] that did Clerics and Druids. Sure, they also had 36 spells between 1st and 3rd level, but they only [B]60 [/B]spells through 6th level. Heck, one of the seventh level Illusionist spells (one of the SIX they could choose from) was First Level Magic User spells .... ;) That's right, you could Alter Reality, or you could gain all the power of a first level MU. I think that what we see is that there was a [I]de facto [/I]cap of 7th level for spellcasters that weren't MUs. This happened in Dragon Magazine as well for the NPC classes- the Incantrix, literally the "anti-MU," was capped at 7th level spells (and couldn't learn their 7th level spell until 17th level, the same time that a MU had 2 8th level spells). This may also have been an artifact of the separated spell lists- one great advantage of having unique spells lists for each class that each spellcasting class truly felt different. One disadvantage is that ... well, making lots of spells is hard! If they wanted to create a brand-new spellcaster, they'd have to create a lot of brand-new spells. It was easier to just go to 7, I guess. Like a lot of the early rules, I think that the unsatisfying explanation is ... that's just the way they were. [/QUOTE]
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Why do Wizard hot dogs come in packages of 9, but Cleric buns come in packages of 7?
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