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What is the Sorcerer?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mephista" data-source="post: 9320574" data-attributes="member: 6786252"><p>First let me say that I misread innate spellcasting to mean "flexible casting vs traditional Vancian" at first. I'm a bit too used to people pointing out the sorcerer's 3e origin as an experimental mechanics class, and I think we've grown past that. Much like the modern warlock is a mix of the older classes of binder, warlock, hexblade and maybe a few others, I'm going to argue that the modern sorcerer is a mix of psion, sorcerer, and a few other odds and ends. </p><p></p><p>So I appologize for being confusing there at first. </p><p></p><p>Then I'm going to follow up by saying that the "spellcasting" part isn't necessarily core to the sorcerer's identity. We're using spells to approximate the trope, but its not necessarily the only way to to do it. It is simply the easiest and least stressful way that 5e represents the sorcerer.</p><p></p><p>So, to TLDR this: Yes, but Kinda No.</p><p></p><p>Several reasons. I blame the lacking mechanics and the lack of love from WotC, to be honest. There are a lot of unfavorable comparisons to the warlock and wizard that left the sorcerer feeling like a bad copy, the mechanics were a poor match to the class' theme, WotC effectively having a bias against the Sorcerer, even when it comes to just... letting them use thematically appropriate spells like Illusory Dragon. </p><p></p><p>It also didn't help that, when the sorcerer came out, there weren't enough elemental spells to do anything other than a fire-based Dragon Sorcerer, and there were practically no chaotic-magic options to feel like a Wild Mage without beggiing the DM. Even now, doing an acid- or poison- based dragon is a stretch.</p><p></p><p>Sorcerer also claimed metamagics, preventing all other casters from having access like they have in previous editions, which did generate bad feelings as well.</p><p></p><p>Maybe. There are many people that would love to do that. But there are problems with this approach too. While there are many people who would appreciate this approach, there are just as many people who very much do like the sorcerer as a caster. I did say that spellcasting wasn't central to the sorcerer's identity, but there are people out there that would disagree with me.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, and to me more importantly, it would effectively require a third style of gameplay introduced into D&D. Doing largely magical effects through non-spellcasting means that we would end up ignoring the few checks and balances casters have while basically giving them roughly the same power level. We've seen this happen before with psionic classes in other editions, and balance is important enough to enough people that its a non-starter for many.</p><p></p><p>It could be pulled off with infinite time and infinite budget and good developers, but that's just unrealistic to expect.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Technically the option is there. Just doesn't get a lot of attention and, to be honest, its often much easier on DMs to have singular Patrons as a dedicated NPC, and dedicated NPCs often come with their own interesting stories. Its also the most iconic</p><p></p><p>If you don't mind me delving a bit into the warlock... There's two ways to look at the warlocks. One way is to see them as a kind of... edgelord cleric type. They draw power from a patron, then do quests for the patron, just like divine casters do. The other way? 4th edition warlocks didn't do favors - instead, they went on go on adventures to discover forbidden lore and ancient secrets, just like wizards do. Its just that these secrets and lore referred to beings to contanct, and using ancient, already existing contracts / bargains to claim power. </p><p></p><p>I do prefer the second way, which reminds me heavily of Final Fantasy's blue mage class. To me, warlock is the monster-magic class.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Glad you enjoyed it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mephista, post: 9320574, member: 6786252"] First let me say that I misread innate spellcasting to mean "flexible casting vs traditional Vancian" at first. I'm a bit too used to people pointing out the sorcerer's 3e origin as an experimental mechanics class, and I think we've grown past that. Much like the modern warlock is a mix of the older classes of binder, warlock, hexblade and maybe a few others, I'm going to argue that the modern sorcerer is a mix of psion, sorcerer, and a few other odds and ends. So I appologize for being confusing there at first. Then I'm going to follow up by saying that the "spellcasting" part isn't necessarily core to the sorcerer's identity. We're using spells to approximate the trope, but its not necessarily the only way to to do it. It is simply the easiest and least stressful way that 5e represents the sorcerer. So, to TLDR this: Yes, but Kinda No. Several reasons. I blame the lacking mechanics and the lack of love from WotC, to be honest. There are a lot of unfavorable comparisons to the warlock and wizard that left the sorcerer feeling like a bad copy, the mechanics were a poor match to the class' theme, WotC effectively having a bias against the Sorcerer, even when it comes to just... letting them use thematically appropriate spells like Illusory Dragon. It also didn't help that, when the sorcerer came out, there weren't enough elemental spells to do anything other than a fire-based Dragon Sorcerer, and there were practically no chaotic-magic options to feel like a Wild Mage without beggiing the DM. Even now, doing an acid- or poison- based dragon is a stretch. Sorcerer also claimed metamagics, preventing all other casters from having access like they have in previous editions, which did generate bad feelings as well. Maybe. There are many people that would love to do that. But there are problems with this approach too. While there are many people who would appreciate this approach, there are just as many people who very much do like the sorcerer as a caster. I did say that spellcasting wasn't central to the sorcerer's identity, but there are people out there that would disagree with me. Secondly, and to me more importantly, it would effectively require a third style of gameplay introduced into D&D. Doing largely magical effects through non-spellcasting means that we would end up ignoring the few checks and balances casters have while basically giving them roughly the same power level. We've seen this happen before with psionic classes in other editions, and balance is important enough to enough people that its a non-starter for many. It could be pulled off with infinite time and infinite budget and good developers, but that's just unrealistic to expect. Technically the option is there. Just doesn't get a lot of attention and, to be honest, its often much easier on DMs to have singular Patrons as a dedicated NPC, and dedicated NPCs often come with their own interesting stories. Its also the most iconic If you don't mind me delving a bit into the warlock... There's two ways to look at the warlocks. One way is to see them as a kind of... edgelord cleric type. They draw power from a patron, then do quests for the patron, just like divine casters do. The other way? 4th edition warlocks didn't do favors - instead, they went on go on adventures to discover forbidden lore and ancient secrets, just like wizards do. Its just that these secrets and lore referred to beings to contanct, and using ancient, already existing contracts / bargains to claim power. I do prefer the second way, which reminds me heavily of Final Fantasy's blue mage class. To me, warlock is the monster-magic class. Glad you enjoyed it. [/QUOTE]
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