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The Pros and Cons of Guild Membership (Help wanted)
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<blockquote data-quote="Steel_Wind" data-source="post: 5658751" data-attributes="member: 20741"><p>I think your ideas (and the Auld Grump's) are just AOK, fine -- if not great. I would point out, however, that the use of the term "Guild" brings with it a whole lot of baggage that in my experience you should avoid like the plague. </p><p></p><p>My problem with the term "Thieves' Guild" as it has been used over the past 35+ years is that it turns what ought to be a small, focussed and specific group into this monolithic, city-wide (if not globe spanning) organized crime syndicate that feels contrived, cookie-cutterish and wholly without a personality or a soul.</p><p></p><p>Every "Thieves Guild" ends up being like the next. Suddenly, we are all caught playing in Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar (from whence the entire idea of the Thieves Guild was derived.) It's a cool plot device -- but it has become <strong>far less cool</strong> over time. It has been overused to the point where it is a zombie, shuffling around long past its useful shelf life.</p><p></p><p>Your various crime groups as you have presented them feel like rival "gangs" and this is VERY good and is the preferred way to go. Thumbs up.</p><p></p><p>For reasons of clarity while communicating on a message forum, it's fine to use the term "guild"; but in play, I would avoid using that term -- <strong><span style="color: orange">even once</span></strong> -- like the Ebola virus it is. It just imports so many preconceptions and sameness, it's a disaster and undermines all your hard work and the verisimilitude of your setting.</p><p></p><p>Call them "gangs" and all will be well.</p><p></p><p>__________________________________________</p><p></p><p>If I had a gloss on your idea, it would be to root them less in the type of crimes in which they are involved, and more on the area of town in which they operate, and FAR more on the ethnicity and race from which each gang's membership is drawn. There should be a close family connection, shared racial heritage, cultural ethnicity, religion or some childhood neighbourhood ties that are being required to even join the ranks of most gangs.</p><p></p><p>Criminals, after all, are criminals; they are inherently untrustworthy and they know it. <em>Criminals do not trust other criminals</em>. What they trust is something OTHER than the criminal background of their associates. <em><span style="color: orange">It is that "something else" (whatever it is) which is the most important thing to them</span></em>. That way, the criminal is not trusting a gang member because he is a criminal, but <strong><span style="color: orange">IN SPITE OF THE FACT</span></strong> that he is a criminal because of this other, superceding, more important reason that fuels their group identity. That "something else" is what breeds and sustains group loyalty. </p><p></p><p>For example, unless you are born and raised as a Sicilian or Sicilian American (or Sicilian Canadian, as the case may be) you will never EVER be a made guy in the Mob. (To be sure, there is more to it than that, but that shared cultural ethnicity <strong><em>is</em></strong> a "no exceptions" requirement). Irish and Jewish gangs have had the same history in the past (and present) in America, too. This ties the gang to something exclusive and which integrates into the cultural identity and family relations of the gang member.</p><p></p><p>If you look at other successful gangs in America which have a more open structure to them, even then, there is something which binds them all together <em><span style="color: orange">in spite of their being criminals</span></em> -- because they have a shared experience and identity. For example, while the Hells Angels tends to focus far less on ethnicity, you have to adopt the "biker lifestyle" and be a hang around before you can ever be considered for full-patch membership in the HA or most other MCs. </p><p></p><p>You have to be one of them to earn their trust; "them" means more than being a criminal -- much more.</p><p></p><p>IMO, focus far less on the types of crime and focus far more on the types of members who participate in those crimes. Do that and your gangs will have a stronger feel of plausibility in your campaign. Now, it may well be that the types of crimes committed by those particular gangs will end up just as you describe them, but the focus should be on the individuals' shared heritage or interests, and far less upon the crimes they do. </p><p></p><p>While this may limit and foreclose membership in most of these gangs to your player characters, that's not necessarily a bad thing as it lends an air of reality to the rest of the "closed" gangs that you do present. When it feels more real -- that's never, <strong><em><span style="color: orange">ever</span></em></strong>, a bad thing.</p><p></p><p>In short -- break free of Leiber's Thieves Guild and instead root your criminal underbelly in the shared heritage of the gangs' membership for a more "real" feel to your campaign.</p><p></p><p>I'm sure you have watched <em>The Sopranos</em>, but if you have not ALSO watched FX's "<em>Sons of Anarchy</em>", I strongly suggest that you do. The series is about a Motorcycle Club, clearly based upon the Hells Angels. Yes, it's TOTALLY a soap opera where the viewership is assumed to be men, not women. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>But the best thing about the series is that it really does show why people of divergent backgrounds can come to trust one another in a MC and why they will not turn on one another (except when they do!!). That's what a REAL "Thieves Guild" should be like, imo.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Steel_Wind, post: 5658751, member: 20741"] I think your ideas (and the Auld Grump's) are just AOK, fine -- if not great. I would point out, however, that the use of the term "Guild" brings with it a whole lot of baggage that in my experience you should avoid like the plague. My problem with the term "Thieves' Guild" as it has been used over the past 35+ years is that it turns what ought to be a small, focussed and specific group into this monolithic, city-wide (if not globe spanning) organized crime syndicate that feels contrived, cookie-cutterish and wholly without a personality or a soul. Every "Thieves Guild" ends up being like the next. Suddenly, we are all caught playing in Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar (from whence the entire idea of the Thieves Guild was derived.) It's a cool plot device -- but it has become [B]far less cool[/B] over time. It has been overused to the point where it is a zombie, shuffling around long past its useful shelf life. Your various crime groups as you have presented them feel like rival "gangs" and this is VERY good and is the preferred way to go. Thumbs up. For reasons of clarity while communicating on a message forum, it's fine to use the term "guild"; but in play, I would avoid using that term -- [B][COLOR=orange]even once[/COLOR][/B] -- like the Ebola virus it is. It just imports so many preconceptions and sameness, it's a disaster and undermines all your hard work and the verisimilitude of your setting. Call them "gangs" and all will be well. __________________________________________ If I had a gloss on your idea, it would be to root them less in the type of crimes in which they are involved, and more on the area of town in which they operate, and FAR more on the ethnicity and race from which each gang's membership is drawn. There should be a close family connection, shared racial heritage, cultural ethnicity, religion or some childhood neighbourhood ties that are being required to even join the ranks of most gangs. Criminals, after all, are criminals; they are inherently untrustworthy and they know it. [I]Criminals do not trust other criminals[/I]. What they trust is something OTHER than the criminal background of their associates. [I][COLOR=orange]It is that "something else" (whatever it is) which is the most important thing to them[/COLOR][/I]. That way, the criminal is not trusting a gang member because he is a criminal, but [B][COLOR=orange]IN SPITE OF THE FACT[/COLOR][/B] that he is a criminal because of this other, superceding, more important reason that fuels their group identity. That "something else" is what breeds and sustains group loyalty. For example, unless you are born and raised as a Sicilian or Sicilian American (or Sicilian Canadian, as the case may be) you will never EVER be a made guy in the Mob. (To be sure, there is more to it than that, but that shared cultural ethnicity [B][I]is[/I][/B] a "no exceptions" requirement). Irish and Jewish gangs have had the same history in the past (and present) in America, too. This ties the gang to something exclusive and which integrates into the cultural identity and family relations of the gang member. If you look at other successful gangs in America which have a more open structure to them, even then, there is something which binds them all together [I][COLOR=orange]in spite of their being criminals[/COLOR][/I] -- because they have a shared experience and identity. For example, while the Hells Angels tends to focus far less on ethnicity, you have to adopt the "biker lifestyle" and be a hang around before you can ever be considered for full-patch membership in the HA or most other MCs. You have to be one of them to earn their trust; "them" means more than being a criminal -- much more. IMO, focus far less on the types of crime and focus far more on the types of members who participate in those crimes. Do that and your gangs will have a stronger feel of plausibility in your campaign. Now, it may well be that the types of crimes committed by those particular gangs will end up just as you describe them, but the focus should be on the individuals' shared heritage or interests, and far less upon the crimes they do. While this may limit and foreclose membership in most of these gangs to your player characters, that's not necessarily a bad thing as it lends an air of reality to the rest of the "closed" gangs that you do present. When it feels more real -- that's never, [B][I][COLOR=orange]ever[/COLOR][/I][/B], a bad thing. In short -- break free of Leiber's Thieves Guild and instead root your criminal underbelly in the shared heritage of the gangs' membership for a more "real" feel to your campaign. I'm sure you have watched [I]The Sopranos[/I], but if you have not ALSO watched FX's "[I]Sons of Anarchy[/I]", I strongly suggest that you do. The series is about a Motorcycle Club, clearly based upon the Hells Angels. Yes, it's TOTALLY a soap opera where the viewership is assumed to be men, not women. :) But the best thing about the series is that it really does show why people of divergent backgrounds can come to trust one another in a MC and why they will not turn on one another (except when they do!!). That's what a REAL "Thieves Guild" should be like, imo. [/QUOTE]
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