Question.

Belzamus

First Post
Is a Quasi-Deity Balor ECL 40 or 50? I'm a little confused with the whole "Balor's are already Hero-Deities" bit.

I get 40 as at ECL 30 as a "Hero Deity", they have 20 HD with a +10 ECL template (effectively), so with Quasi, they'd be 20 HD with a 20 ECL template.

But, they AREN'T actually Hero-Deities and the Quasi-Deity templates adds directly onto the base Balor rather than overlapping like it would for an actual Hero-Deity who ascended.

This all assuming level-appropriate equipment, of course. I'm guessing 50 is closer to the mark. Maybe compromise and go 45?
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
But, they AREN'T actually Hero-Deities and the Quasi-Deity templates adds directly onto the base Balor rather than overlapping like it would for an actual Hero-Deity who ascended.

So you're saying you think the Quasi-deity template is more beneficial for a balor because it didn't previously have a divinity template? I don't think that's really a factor, otherwise you'd never be able to calculate the ECL of any of the divinity templates without stacking them all in ascending order, as opposed to just dropping the one you want on a creature.

I think you'll be okay with the quasi-deity balor being ECL 40.

EDIT: If it helps, according to version 6.1 of U_K's CR System, a balor naturally has an ECL of 30 anyway, so it's the same.
 

Belzamus

First Post
Sounds good to me.

The only little nag I have is that, say for ability scores, when going from Hero to Quasi, they gain a net +4 to all, whereas the Balor, as those are his natural scores technically, gains a net +8. See what I mean how it can be more beneficial.

Oh well, I already have his ally, who's ECL 60 statted up, so I can just compare them (he has 20 class levels on top of his template) and adjust accordingly.

Thanks for the help. :)
 

Questions

Hi there! I see this may be a good thread for questions in general. Unfortunately I'm no rules master but would anyone familiar with the product perhaps answer some conceptual questions for me?

I purchased the IH:Ascension book a while back before it was completed, so I still have the Beta 2.4 version.
_

So question #1 would be better off as a scenario.
Suppose level 0 commoner Upper_Dust with stats of 12 across the board stumbled upon a potion that conferred permanent High Lord Status (it operates like the Epic Spell divine ascension).
1) What happens to his body? Its indicated a high lord can't be below some massive size. Does he crush the entire world he's on? It is also indicated they embody a campaign, does he suddenly become the campaign universe he was inhabiting, or does he get ejected?
2) How do you increase his stats appropriately for the CR boost? Does it operate like 1 for every 4 levels?
3) Newly minted high lord Upper_Dust puts all of his stat boosts into Int and uses the divine slots for omnific infinite Intelligence. He can now with the Alter Reality ability cast any epic spell he can imagine, no? If so can he cast permanent Divine ascension High Lord to keep multliplying his power level? (Duad to Tetrad to Sextad I presume). Wouldn't any time lord or high lord with infinite intelligence keep multiplying their powers in this way before running off to challenge the supreme being?
4) Omnipresent- does that mean occupying all aspects of the planet (Prime Material Universe) or all planes simultaneously?
5) What is/was the Omega template? Some info if it will ever be detailed?
6) What are meta-empiric abilities? Does that just stand for the umpire abilities of a DM and hence have no need for detail?

I appreciate feedback!!
 

Belzamus

First Post
Hi there! I see this may be a good thread for questions in general. Unfortunately I'm no rules master but would anyone familiar with the product perhaps answer some conceptual questions for me?

I purchased the IH:Ascension book a while back before it was completed, so I still have the Beta 2.4 version.
_

So question #1 would be better off as a scenario.
Suppose level 0 commoner Upper_Dust with stats of 12 across the board stumbled upon a potion that conferred permanent High Lord Status (it operates like the Epic Spell divine ascension).
1) What happens to his body? Its indicated a high lord can't be below some massive size. Does he crush the entire world he's on? It is also indicated they embody a campaign, does he suddenly become the campaign universe he was inhabiting, or does he get ejected?
2) How do you increase his stats appropriately for the CR boost? Does it operate like 1 for every 4 levels?
3) Newly minted high lord Upper_Dust puts all of his stat boosts into Int and uses the divine slots for omnific infinite Intelligence. He can now with the Alter Reality ability cast any epic spell he can imagine, no? If so can he cast permanent Divine ascension High Lord to keep multliplying his power level? (Duad to Tetrad to Sextad I presume). Wouldn't any time lord or high lord with infinite intelligence keep multiplying their powers in this way before running off to challenge the supreme being?
4) Omnipresent- does that mean occupying all aspects of the planet (Prime Material Universe) or all planes simultaneously?
5) What is/was the Omega template? Some info if it will ever be detailed?
6) What are meta-empiric abilities? Does that just stand for the umpire abilities of a DM and hence have no need for detail?

I appreciate feedback!!

1. Macro-whatever isn't all that big at all, a few hundred to a few thousand feet at most. More info on sizes in the Epic Bestiary. Presumably, he would either grow to that size or take a number of Divine Immnesity abilities to allow him to retain his original size.

2. He would get the standard +1/4 HD in addition to the bonus from his Divine Template (2 x Divine Rank to all stats).

3. That's a damned good question. I don't use that spell, so I can't really help you there. I'd rule that Alter Reality uses their actual spell-craft modifier, sans inifinite, in this case, personally.

4. I believe that implies all worlds, all planes, all dimensions, and anything else within the Lord's universe.

5. The Omega Template was never officially released, but Alzrius gave it a crack a while ago in the Design an Epic Monster thread. Here you go: http://www.enworld.org/forum/eterni...tition-design-epic-monster-3.html#post4071670

6. That's probably a safe guess. Just make sure to keep in mind that a player using the Omega template is NOT justified in stabbing the DM IRL to defeat the Supreme Being in-game. ;)
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Hi there! I see this may be a good thread for questions in general. Unfortunately I'm no rules master but would anyone familiar with the product perhaps answer some conceptual questions for me?

I was the book's editor, so I'll give it a shot.

I purchased the IH:Ascension book a while back before it was completed, so I still have the Beta 2.4 version.

Just so you know, the last version released was v.3.1.

So question #1 would be better off as a scenario.
Suppose level 0 commoner Upper_Dust with stats of 12 across the board stumbled upon a potion that conferred permanent High Lord Status (it operates like the Epic Spell divine ascension).

This is nitpicking, but he'd be a level 1 commoner unless you were using some third-party rules for 0-level creatures. Of course, to have 12 in all stats is slightly better than most commoners ever have anyway!

1) What happens to his body? Its indicated a high lord can't be below some massive size. Does he crush the entire world he's on? It is also indicated they embody a campaign, does he suddenly become the campaign universe he was inhabiting, or does he get ejected?

He'd hardly crush the world. He'd be, at the smallest, Macro-Tiny, which is between 1,024 to 2,048 feet tall, and weight between 512,000 to 4 million tons...that's heavy, but hardly heavy enough to seriously fracture the planet he's on.

Beyond that, the pantheistic nature of creatures beyond greater deities isn't necessarily a hard-and-fast rule (at least, I don't think so). It doesn't mean that he instantly becomes a universe, just that he gains power commensurate with an incarnate universe, and perhaps will develop one within himself over time (in essence, his apotheosis is his own personal big bang). Alternately, you could say that this does catapult him straight to Muzaloth. It's up to you.

2) How do you increase his stats appropriately for the CR boost? Does it operate like 1 for every 4 levels?

Beyond the stat increases he'd get for the stacked Time Lord templates, you'd be presumably bumping his Hit Dice up to meet the minimum Hit Dice listing for his High Lord level, so then yes he'd also gain 1 ability point per 4 Hit Dice gained (which'd be just under 250 ability points for each time you stacked the Time Lord template on him).

3) Newly minted high lord Upper_Dust puts all of his stat boosts into Int and uses the divine slots for omnific infinite Intelligence. He can now with the Alter Reality ability cast any epic spell he can imagine, no? If so can he cast permanent Divine ascension High Lord to keep multliplying his power level? (Duad to Tetrad to Sextad I presume). Wouldn't any time lord or high lord with infinite intelligence keep multiplying their powers in this way before running off to challenge the supreme being?

Well, this trick will never let them successfully challenge the Supreme Being, since even with Infinite Strength (which is necessary to even try and cross the Great Wall to make such a challenge) you only have a 1 in 4,096 chance of making it there to begin with.

That said, the idea of using Infinite Intelligence (and thus an infinitely high Spellcraft bonus with which to cast divine ascension) should probably be flatly disallowed to prevent just such a trick. Personally, I'd rule that any being beyond greater god can't gain anything from that spell, as it's just influxing them with mana (magic, the fifth element) and they need a perfect infusion of quintessence to ascend to sidereal or higher.

4) Omnipresent- does that mean occupying all aspects of the planet (Prime Material Universe) or all planes simultaneously?

It means that your divine aura extends across all planes of existence in your cosmology. Upper_Krust tends to write "universe" where he means the multiverse.

5) What is/was the Omega template? Some info if it will ever be detailed?

I posted my interpretation of the Omega template here (with a brief follow-up here).

For what it's worth, Upper_Krust didn't care too much for the template as I wrote it.

6) What are meta-empiric abilities? Does that just stand for the umpire abilities of a DM and hence have no need for detail?

Yeah, pretty much. Remember, the Supreme Being is the DM, so these are the "powers" that the DM wields when he sits behind the DM Screen, and thus are beyond stats (and remember, they're hypothetical anyway)!

I appreciate feedback!!

Glad to be able to help out! :)
 
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First of all, WOW thanks for the prompt replies! You guys rock.

Alzrius mentioned in #3 that even if the stacking Divine Ascension trick were allowed, it still wouldn't help with the 1 in 4096 chance of breaching the great wall.

Which leads me to a question of how Avatars work. If they operate as two status below the divinity, does this mean two categories or just two lower on the chart? Would a Tetrad's avatar be a Duad?
Presume Alzy the Ubergod (a lucky noble who just happens to quaff Belzy's potion of High Lord Ascension) may apply stacking Divine Ascension spells, He can presumably keep adding 'Ads', lets say, a few trillion times and manifest far more than 4,096 avatars, each with infinite strength attempting to Breach the Great Wall.
Presuming Alzy can keep this up all day (do this infinitely) he's bound to roll that lucky 1 in 4026 eventually. Or he cold just use an epic spell to give himself manipulate form and give treat himself to an "I'm the DM" extraordinary ability but pretending that particularly broken ability didn't exist...

Funny thing about manipulate form is it could also grant just hapless level 1 kobold all of the omnific abilities on down (at least as of 2.4 since they were all listed as (su) or (ex).

And That was a great idea for the Omega Template. It definitely was not what I was expecting. I am really curious about the template concept, even if it will never see light of day.
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
First of all, WOW thanks for the prompt replies! You guys rock.

:cool:

Alzrius mentioned in #3 that even if the stacking Divine Ascension trick were allowed, it still wouldn't help with the 1 in 4096 chance of breaching the great wall.

Quite right. Even for High Lords, that's an extremely dangerous thing to attempt.

Which leads me to a question of how Avatars work. If they operate as two status below the divinity, does this mean two categories or just two lower on the chart? Would a Tetrad's avatar be a Duad?

An avatar always costs 10% of the "parent" immortal's total quintessence, and as with most expenditures of quintessence, only 10% of that amount is actually passed on (the rest being lost in the transfer); hence, the avatar has a grand total of 1% of the god's total quintessence - this is of an amount that would always result in the avatar being two divine strata lower. For example, an elder one with 1,000,000,000 quintessence (the minimum for an elder one) would have an avatar with only 10,000,000 quintessence, which is the minimum for an intermediate deity - two ranks lower than an elder one.

Hence, look at 1% of your High Lord's quintessence and figure out the highest divinity template that meets the prerequisite quintessence for - that's your avatar. Ergo, only a ridiculously powerful High Lord would have an avatar of Time Lord or higher status.

Presume Alzy the Ubergod (a lucky noble who just happens to quaff Belzy's potion of High Lord Ascension)

I'd say it's the Akashic Records themselves wanting Alzy to ascend, but we needn't niggle over the details. ;)

may apply stacking Divine Ascension spells, He can presumably keep adding 'Ads', lets say, a few trillion times

Really, if you insist on utilizing that most broken of combos, you'll find that you can do pretty much anything...

and manifest far more than 4,096 avatars, each with infinite strength attempting to Breach the Great Wall.

...except this. Making an avatar costs an immortal 10% of their total quintessence (9% of which is lost just creating it), which is a huge loss no matter how you slice it.

Now, while Ascension doesn't expressly say that a god can have only one avatar, that's the spirit of the rules; the Legion cosmic ability lets a god split itself into six avatars (and before you ask, no, avatars cannot themselves take Legion and create avatars).

Presuming Alzy can keep this up all day (do this infinitely) he's bound to roll that lucky 1 in 4026 eventually.

Not really, since he can't make an avatar-army. :p

Or he cold just use an epic spell to give himself manipulate form and give treat himself to an "I'm the DM" extraordinary ability but pretending that particularly broken ability didn't exist...

Hopefully, if anyone starts channeling Pun-Pun, the Supreme Being will step in to immediately smite the offender.

Funny thing about manipulate form is it could also grant just hapless level 1 kobold all of the omnific abilities on down (at least as of 2.4 since they were all listed as (su) or (ex).

See above.

And That was a great idea for the Omega Template. It definitely was not what I was expecting. I am really curious about the template concept, even if it will never see light of day.

Thanks. I was quite pleased that it placed in the top three for the Epic Monster Contest that was held. I'm not sure if U_K originally planned on fleshing out the Omega Template or not, but I do recall him saying later on that he wasn't going to; that was what made me try my hand at it.

Note that, despite it's place in the contest, U_K essentially threw it out, though he did say here that he had an interesting idea for it; what that idea was was never revealed, though.
 
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Belzamus

First Post
Personally, I'm in favor of making Divine, Cosmic, Trans, Omnific, etc into their own ability types a la Su, Ex, and Sp, which prevents Manipulate Form shennanigans (and let's a Time Lord wtfpwn Pun-Pun, as one should. :p. "Oh, think you're tough, do you Mr. Pun? Try this Oblivion-Infinite Strength-Omnipresent-Transversal-Ultimate Wepon Specialization-Ultimate Power Attack on for size! How'd you like that, huh? Huh? Mr. Pun? Hello? Mr. Pun?")

Of course, that probably causes more problems than it solves, with Antimagic Fields and Dead Magic Zones and whatnot, which is why I never bring it up unless Pun-Pun is involved.
 

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