Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Monk: The Past, Present, and Questionable Future of an Iconic Class
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 9062277" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>I read that thread, and as you might tell from the OP, it informed some of what I wrote. I think people are doing good work in there! Well, despite the occasional sniping that is part and parcel of life on the 'tubez. </p><p></p><p>That said ... (you knew it was coming!) the thing I've been thinking about, and the genesis of the thread, was when I was thinking about my feelings about the monk, and why these changes felt especially off to me. And I think it's for two reasons.</p><p></p><p>The first is that some of proposed changes genuinely don't make sense to me, especially in light of the increased emphasis on "buffing" martials (with Weapon Properties, no less). It made me think about how the whiteroom combat theory about the Monk tends to get a lot of things wrong, and the original sin is that it tends to overvalue weaponless combat and undervalue the inability to use magic weapons or magic armor - and how MAD the Monk is compared to other martials.</p><p></p><p>Second, and more important, was the realization that the changes were really all about combat. And I think that's where I really started dwelling on the problem with the class, which is a little different than most of what is written. As I wrote, I love the monk. It's a fun and different martial character to play. But here's the thing- there's already a better fighter (the, um, fighter). There's a better tank (the barbarian). There's two classes that are both martial and a lot more versatile (Rangers and Paladins). And there's even a class that does better surge damage with out-of-combat utility (the Rogue). </p><p></p><p>And that's when I realized what the real issue is. It's not combat, or, not mainly combat. The monk will always have a great niche as the fun, mobile, squishy melee character. The problem is that the monk is being completely combat-focused. </p><p></p><p>Think about it- it's both MAD and often dumps charisma, so your Monk will usually be the last choice for any social interaction.</p><p>The Monk (unlike Rogues, Bards, Artificers, and even Tasha's Rangers) doesn't have expertise as an option, so it won't ever be great at skills.</p><p>Because the Monk is MAD, and needs high wisdom and dexterity just for AC, it is hard to justify feats; moreover, most don't help the Monk greatly (unlike some of the weapons feats). </p><p>Heck, the Monk is a class with a super high dexterity, yet almost exclusively uses melee combat (which circles around to the issues with hit points and AC). </p><p></p><p>I've played a lot of Monks, and they can be fun at combat, but they often twiddle their thumbs at everything else. Even things they should be good at (like scouting) they will often take a backseat to classes like the Rogue with expertise. The UA simply confirms and increases this trend by orienting them even more towards combat, but continuing to make them the designated second-class martials. </p><p></p><p><em>Which is fine</em>. Monks don't have to "outfight" the fighter. But they have to do something. Heck, even basic things like the fact that most Monks suck at athletics is kind of a kick in the cojones when you're playing them. </p><p></p><p>Given Monks cool abilities. Give them more ribbons. Instead of worrying about their combat (which is ... fine) let the Monk get some skill certainty, whether through expertise or fixed abilities. As far as combat abilities go, and with the new ki ("di") regeneration, the combat abilities of the Monk are fine, albeit with the need of some tweaking. I'd like to see some thought put into fixing the other aspects of the Monk that are glaringly obvious in play- everything from "why do Monks suck at athletics," to "What are Monks supposed to do in real campaigns when other party members are using magic swords and magic armor and feats to be all awesome while the Monk is still stuck at the whiteroom theory level of DPR?"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 9062277, member: 7023840"] I read that thread, and as you might tell from the OP, it informed some of what I wrote. I think people are doing good work in there! Well, despite the occasional sniping that is part and parcel of life on the 'tubez. That said ... (you knew it was coming!) the thing I've been thinking about, and the genesis of the thread, was when I was thinking about my feelings about the monk, and why these changes felt especially off to me. And I think it's for two reasons. The first is that some of proposed changes genuinely don't make sense to me, especially in light of the increased emphasis on "buffing" martials (with Weapon Properties, no less). It made me think about how the whiteroom combat theory about the Monk tends to get a lot of things wrong, and the original sin is that it tends to overvalue weaponless combat and undervalue the inability to use magic weapons or magic armor - and how MAD the Monk is compared to other martials. Second, and more important, was the realization that the changes were really all about combat. And I think that's where I really started dwelling on the problem with the class, which is a little different than most of what is written. As I wrote, I love the monk. It's a fun and different martial character to play. But here's the thing- there's already a better fighter (the, um, fighter). There's a better tank (the barbarian). There's two classes that are both martial and a lot more versatile (Rangers and Paladins). And there's even a class that does better surge damage with out-of-combat utility (the Rogue). And that's when I realized what the real issue is. It's not combat, or, not mainly combat. The monk will always have a great niche as the fun, mobile, squishy melee character. The problem is that the monk is being completely combat-focused. Think about it- it's both MAD and often dumps charisma, so your Monk will usually be the last choice for any social interaction. The Monk (unlike Rogues, Bards, Artificers, and even Tasha's Rangers) doesn't have expertise as an option, so it won't ever be great at skills. Because the Monk is MAD, and needs high wisdom and dexterity just for AC, it is hard to justify feats; moreover, most don't help the Monk greatly (unlike some of the weapons feats). Heck, the Monk is a class with a super high dexterity, yet almost exclusively uses melee combat (which circles around to the issues with hit points and AC). I've played a lot of Monks, and they can be fun at combat, but they often twiddle their thumbs at everything else. Even things they should be good at (like scouting) they will often take a backseat to classes like the Rogue with expertise. The UA simply confirms and increases this trend by orienting them even more towards combat, but continuing to make them the designated second-class martials. [I]Which is fine[/I]. Monks don't have to "outfight" the fighter. But they have to do something. Heck, even basic things like the fact that most Monks suck at athletics is kind of a kick in the cojones when you're playing them. Given Monks cool abilities. Give them more ribbons. Instead of worrying about their combat (which is ... fine) let the Monk get some skill certainty, whether through expertise or fixed abilities. As far as combat abilities go, and with the new ki ("di") regeneration, the combat abilities of the Monk are fine, albeit with the need of some tweaking. I'd like to see some thought put into fixing the other aspects of the Monk that are glaringly obvious in play- everything from "why do Monks suck at athletics," to "What are Monks supposed to do in real campaigns when other party members are using magic swords and magic armor and feats to be all awesome while the Monk is still stuck at the whiteroom theory level of DPR?" [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Monk: The Past, Present, and Questionable Future of an Iconic Class
Top