Meeting PrC pre-reqs

[SableWyvern]

I have recently been considering this question, and can see some reasonable arguments on both sides. Feedback, including any points I've missed on either side, would be appreciated.

POV 1: You can use the abilities gained from the 1st level of a PrC to meet the requirements for that PrC.

Circumstancial metagame support for POV1
You can use an ability, skill, bab or save increase due to level to meet a requirement for a feat you take at that level.

You can use a feat and/or ability increase gained normally to meet a requirement for a PrC which you take at that level.

RPing support for POV1
The time spent from gaining a level up until taking a PrC at next level could be considered a character preparing himself for that PrC. When he reaches that level (either with or without a discrete training period to level up)his training has paid off, he gains the appropriate abilities, meets all requirements and is of that PrC.

POV2: A character can not use any special ability, bonus feat, bab increase, skill rank or other characteristic of a PrC in order to meet the requirements for that PrC.

The only support I have for this POV is simply that the pre-requisites are just that - requirements before taking the class. I am in agreement with this POV, but a degree of doubt arose due to the fact that a character only needs to meet pre-reqs at the time of taking the class. A character could, for example, hit level 9, take the Spirited Charge feat, and - assuming he has already met all other requirements - immediately take the Cavalier PrC. But, what if what he needs to meet the pre-reqs is not a feat, but another rank in ride? He is guaranteed to be able to get such a rank on levelling up, in exactly the same way as he is guaranteed a new feat. But, at some point, the skill ranks gained will become dependant on the class taken. Where is the line drawn?

Probably this is expressly written somewhere and I've missed it - either way, some feedback would be appreciated.

 

[gfunk]

In the PHB, p. 56 it mentions what you get for advancing a level. However it does not specifically state the order in which you get these features.

IMO, I would allow a feat gained every third level to be taken before the PC chooses a class. However, most other features of class such as BAB and skill points are defined by the class you take. Therefore, in your example, the PC wanting to become a Cavalier could take Spirited Charge but coudn't get the PrC since his current ranks in Ride were insufficient.

However, by the rules (strictly), you must fully meet the PrC requirment before you enter one.

 

[Crothian]

Ya, you need to have all the prerequites to get into a class before you take the class.

 

[Setanta]

Page 145 of the PH gives the order. The first thing you do when you level up is choose a class. So, if you haven't met the pre-reqs for a PrC, then you can't choose the class. You can pick feats that you just met certain pre-reqs for because feats are one of the last items on the list. So, if you need +3 BAB for a feat, then a fighter can take it at third level because the character's BAB goes up in step 2, then the feat is selected in step 7, by which time the BAB is already +3.

 

[SableWyvern]

Thanks Setanta.

That's a little more stict than I was going to play, but not so much so that I have a problem with it.

 

[Umbran]

In the PHB, p. 56 it mentions what you get for advancing a level. However it does not specifically state the order in which you get these features.

I will reiterate what Setanta said - pg 145 does give an explicit order. Class is chosen first, before any other benefits of the levelare gained. If you don't have the prerequisites first, you cannot choose the class. Feats (ether from the specific class or from character level) are chosen close to last. The Sage (and, iirc a few of the designers) have spoken to the fact that this was the intent. You are free to do it otherwise, but keep in mind that it is a house rule.

 

[Setanta]

That's a little more stict than I was going to play, but not so much so that I have a problem with it.

I don't think too many DM's (any?) make their players go through that list step by step every time they level up a character, but it is something to point to if you ever wonder if you can take a PrC on the same level you meet the pre-reqs (no) or if you get an extra skill rank to spend if you raise your Int (no).

 

[dcollins]

The PH p. 145 ordering (first noted herein by Setanta) has in fact been referred more than once by the designers (Skip/Monte) as being the mandatory leveling-up process ordering.