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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 9325267" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>The ruling about getting nothing from the unfinished rest is correct.</p><p></p><p>After that, however; yeah, even ignoring your fairly clear bias it seems the DM went overboard. The only thing you might have done differently (though you likely had no reason to think of it in this case) was go ultra-cautious and, after the spider fight, say "We're done for the day" and retreat outside to return tomorrow after a full rest.</p><p></p><p>And as a DM with a group of new players, there's only one thing I'd have done differently: made it abundantly clear up front in the game write-up that adventuring is a very risky way to make a living, and most who try it don't survive for long.</p><p></p><p>After that fair warning, I'd let the chips fall where they may and leave it up to them to get themselves both into and out of trouble.</p><p></p><p>Remember my anecdote about the new player who, on her first character death, became even more determined to have the next one survive? That's enthusiasm for the game. That's a player who will make the game live. That's a player I want at my table.</p><p></p><p>Their story participation isn't being taken away, as long as one defines "story" to be that of the overall party or campaign rather than of one specific character.</p><p></p><p>I saw those responses; thanks for giving them. However....</p><p></p><p>...DMs looking for a hard-coded mechanical loss condition ends up "stuck on the idea" of death because in 5e, <em>death is all those DMs have left</em>. Level drain, limb loss, item loss, and most other long-term or permanent negative consequences that affect a player's ability to play a character have been excised from the game over the years and editions; I fully expect any form of body horror (e.g. unwanted polymorph, petrification, etc.) to be the next to go. Even short-term debilitations e.g. <em>Hold Person</em> have been heavily nerfed.</p><p></p><p>And that's why I asked about those alternate loss conditions, which earlier editions had and which - in the case of level loss and loss of magic items - oftentimes were seen by players as being worse than death.</p><p></p><p>In a typical D&D campaign, I'd posit marriage and-or childbirth are fairly rare among PCs. And the big difference otherwise is that in real life we can only die once, where in D&D it's nowhere near so cut and dried.</p><p></p><p>I want to play the random schlub who goes on to become...well, maybe not necessarily a hero, but a big damn fish in the pond. I also want to play the other random schlubs who die trying.</p><p></p><p>And if you start out already a big damn fish and have thus already pretty much reached your ceiling, where do you go from there?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 9325267, member: 29398"] The ruling about getting nothing from the unfinished rest is correct. After that, however; yeah, even ignoring your fairly clear bias it seems the DM went overboard. The only thing you might have done differently (though you likely had no reason to think of it in this case) was go ultra-cautious and, after the spider fight, say "We're done for the day" and retreat outside to return tomorrow after a full rest. And as a DM with a group of new players, there's only one thing I'd have done differently: made it abundantly clear up front in the game write-up that adventuring is a very risky way to make a living, and most who try it don't survive for long. After that fair warning, I'd let the chips fall where they may and leave it up to them to get themselves both into and out of trouble. Remember my anecdote about the new player who, on her first character death, became even more determined to have the next one survive? That's enthusiasm for the game. That's a player who will make the game live. That's a player I want at my table. Their story participation isn't being taken away, as long as one defines "story" to be that of the overall party or campaign rather than of one specific character. I saw those responses; thanks for giving them. However.... ...DMs looking for a hard-coded mechanical loss condition ends up "stuck on the idea" of death because in 5e, [I]death is all those DMs have left[/I]. Level drain, limb loss, item loss, and most other long-term or permanent negative consequences that affect a player's ability to play a character have been excised from the game over the years and editions; I fully expect any form of body horror (e.g. unwanted polymorph, petrification, etc.) to be the next to go. Even short-term debilitations e.g. [I]Hold Person[/I] have been heavily nerfed. And that's why I asked about those alternate loss conditions, which earlier editions had and which - in the case of level loss and loss of magic items - oftentimes were seen by players as being worse than death. In a typical D&D campaign, I'd posit marriage and-or childbirth are fairly rare among PCs. And the big difference otherwise is that in real life we can only die once, where in D&D it's nowhere near so cut and dried. I want to play the random schlub who goes on to become...well, maybe not necessarily a hero, but a big damn fish in the pond. I also want to play the other random schlubs who die trying. And if you start out already a big damn fish and have thus already pretty much reached your ceiling, where do you go from there? [/QUOTE]
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