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D&D Older Editions
Let's Read the AD&D 2nd Edition PHB+DMG!
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<blockquote data-quote="Orius" data-source="post: 9194491" data-attributes="member: 8863"><p>The PHB's attempt to explain what an RPG is always seemed a little bizarre to me. I'm not sure how anyone could understand what was being explained, a lot of people have long misunderstood RPGs and I don't see how this wouldn't make things more confusing. The Black Box did it well IMO, as it explicitly compared D&D to children's make-believe games. Some gamers might object to that but I think for the average person, it's a simple explanation that most people should be able to grok.</p><p></p><p>I think a good number of the problems or weaknesses with 2e's rules generally come from two things. First, there was the need to change and update things, but the designers were also told not to change too much because backwards compatibility with 1e needed to be maintained. There was some of that compatibility, but 2e changed just enough to make things a bit clunky, and sometimes when 2e changed things, it kind of broke how things worked in 1e. Second, there seemed to be an assumption that players already are familiar with D&D or at least role-playing, and are probably coming up from D&D. This is more explicit in the DMG where new DMs were originally advised to start with D&D instead, but the 1995 revision changed that to one of TSR's attempts to have an introductory set for 2e since the D&D game had moved from the Red Box to the Black Box and then was mostly discontinued. Honestly, if a DM needs starter material for 2e, I'd recommend the D&D Adventure Game along with the Fast-Play material WotC published at the end of the edition.</p><p></p><p>Ability scores are one of those areas where 2e definitely breaks things from 1e. So we've already talked about how Gary felt in 1e that characters needed good scored with at least one 15, sets up ability modifiers where high scores are something of a must and had the 4d6 method as a default. Then 2e defaults to 3d6, relegating 4d6 to optional Method V (but IME and from other people's recollections, Method V seemed to be what most groups used anyway) but the basic framework of AD&D was still built around Gary's assumptions.</p><p></p><p>Some of what 2e talks about ability scores I think is a reaction against 1e developments. Gary introduced elements over the course of 1e that fleshed out high level play and included more powerful options, but I think he was also becoming more removed from how RPGs were developing in the early 80s. Gary's stuff tends to be pretty gamist but at the time narrativist ideas were starting to become more influential. I think 2e made a deliberate choice to step back from the ramping up in power Gary added in material that eventually got published in Unearthed Arcana like the hideously overpowered Method V (the 1e method V not to be confused with 2e Method V which was 1e's default). Ability scores do matter somewhat because Gary designed AD&D with them mattering in mind. There is definitely an approach in 2e's tone that wanting to play a powerful character is badwrongfun and that's it's superior play to have a character with weaknesses that need to be role-played. 3e dialed back on <em>that</em> in turn saying that people playing powerful characters wasn't in and of itself a bad thing because this was how they engaged with the game.</p><p></p><p> If I were to run a fresh AD&D campaign these days though, I would probably drop the AD&D system entirely which relies on high scores and switch either to D&D's 3-18 bell curve which doesn't result in AD&D's dead zone from about 8 to 14, or the modern ability bonuses that were introduced in 3e. Both give bonuses without having to rely on very high scores across the board and are easy to remember.</p><p></p><p>I mostly agree with [USER=7026594]@Mannahnin[/USER] about level limits being a poor balancing feature. It doesn't balance anything if the game never reaches the limits, but it's also one of the balancing features where penalties are delayed until later in a campaign while the benefits are always on. Balancing things like this doesn't do anything if the character dies or something before the balancing features actually kick in. I don't have too much of a problem with the idea that humans are dominant and that level limits reflect the fact that humans continue to be interested in adventuring things while the demihumans fall behind because they have different priorities, but the actual in game mechanics enforcing this don't really work well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Orius, post: 9194491, member: 8863"] The PHB's attempt to explain what an RPG is always seemed a little bizarre to me. I'm not sure how anyone could understand what was being explained, a lot of people have long misunderstood RPGs and I don't see how this wouldn't make things more confusing. The Black Box did it well IMO, as it explicitly compared D&D to children's make-believe games. Some gamers might object to that but I think for the average person, it's a simple explanation that most people should be able to grok. I think a good number of the problems or weaknesses with 2e's rules generally come from two things. First, there was the need to change and update things, but the designers were also told not to change too much because backwards compatibility with 1e needed to be maintained. There was some of that compatibility, but 2e changed just enough to make things a bit clunky, and sometimes when 2e changed things, it kind of broke how things worked in 1e. Second, there seemed to be an assumption that players already are familiar with D&D or at least role-playing, and are probably coming up from D&D. This is more explicit in the DMG where new DMs were originally advised to start with D&D instead, but the 1995 revision changed that to one of TSR's attempts to have an introductory set for 2e since the D&D game had moved from the Red Box to the Black Box and then was mostly discontinued. Honestly, if a DM needs starter material for 2e, I'd recommend the D&D Adventure Game along with the Fast-Play material WotC published at the end of the edition. Ability scores are one of those areas where 2e definitely breaks things from 1e. So we've already talked about how Gary felt in 1e that characters needed good scored with at least one 15, sets up ability modifiers where high scores are something of a must and had the 4d6 method as a default. Then 2e defaults to 3d6, relegating 4d6 to optional Method V (but IME and from other people's recollections, Method V seemed to be what most groups used anyway) but the basic framework of AD&D was still built around Gary's assumptions. Some of what 2e talks about ability scores I think is a reaction against 1e developments. Gary introduced elements over the course of 1e that fleshed out high level play and included more powerful options, but I think he was also becoming more removed from how RPGs were developing in the early 80s. Gary's stuff tends to be pretty gamist but at the time narrativist ideas were starting to become more influential. I think 2e made a deliberate choice to step back from the ramping up in power Gary added in material that eventually got published in Unearthed Arcana like the hideously overpowered Method V (the 1e method V not to be confused with 2e Method V which was 1e's default). Ability scores do matter somewhat because Gary designed AD&D with them mattering in mind. There is definitely an approach in 2e's tone that wanting to play a powerful character is badwrongfun and that's it's superior play to have a character with weaknesses that need to be role-played. 3e dialed back on [I]that[/I] in turn saying that people playing powerful characters wasn't in and of itself a bad thing because this was how they engaged with the game. If I were to run a fresh AD&D campaign these days though, I would probably drop the AD&D system entirely which relies on high scores and switch either to D&D's 3-18 bell curve which doesn't result in AD&D's dead zone from about 8 to 14, or the modern ability bonuses that were introduced in 3e. Both give bonuses without having to rely on very high scores across the board and are easy to remember. I mostly agree with [USER=7026594]@Mannahnin[/USER] about level limits being a poor balancing feature. It doesn't balance anything if the game never reaches the limits, but it's also one of the balancing features where penalties are delayed until later in a campaign while the benefits are always on. Balancing things like this doesn't do anything if the character dies or something before the balancing features actually kick in. I don't have too much of a problem with the idea that humans are dominant and that level limits reflect the fact that humans continue to be interested in adventuring things while the demihumans fall behind because they have different priorities, but the actual in game mechanics enforcing this don't really work well. [/QUOTE]
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