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Is it fun to plan a heist?
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<blockquote data-quote="Emberashh" data-source="post: 9334865" data-attributes="member: 7040941"><p>Well for one, hindsight isn't a skill or something you can practice. And more than that, the actual benefit of hindsight is about learning from your past experiences and applying them to future experiences. </p><p></p><p>So if the flashback is supposed to be leveraging hindsight, then its completely backwards, and no, it does not fit anything I've said. Please don't try to play twisty word games; I meant what I said and I explained my reasoning. It doesn't suddenly mean something else. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is why we have descriptive roleplaying. You do not need rules to <em>talk</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, that's called player skill and it doesn't conflict with power fantasies. And its completely beside the point, because you're not getting what I'm even talking about. </p><p></p><p>Again, I called out <em>social combat</em>. That is what's a dead end. </p><p></p><p>When I say you don't need rules to <em>talk</em>, I'm saying that literally. You do not need rules to talk to your real life friends sitting across a table from you or on a discord call. </p><p></p><p>And keep in mind too, what you point out goes the other way and is just as bad. If someone makes an eloquent speech IRL and the game forces that effort to be wasted because of a dice roll, that's still <em>bad</em>. But the rhetoric you stumbled into would pose that situation as a-okay, when it really shouldn't be. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This just tells me you have a low opinion of what people are capable of. And also that you don't get these games aren't competitions. </p><p></p><p>If you've set yourself to be in a mindset where any of that matters, you've already taken on an extremely bad attitude to have in RPGs. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, knock on wood, but I've literally run RPGs for kids with downs syndrome. You wanna take a guess what those kids didn't have an issue doing? </p><p></p><p>Expectations are important too. I didn't expect them to be conjuring up Oceans 14 (not that we did a heist anyway; they wanted to slay and capture dragons and slay and capture dragons they did. No easy feat in 5e), but they weren't sitting there at a loss either. And in fact that particular group were really big on the whole story telling aspects because despite their conditions they were all pretty voracious, if slow, readers. </p><p></p><p>Putting ones opinion of an aetherial other person so low that you put them lower than the capabilities of children with debilitating cognitive issues, is just gross. </p><p></p><p>And besides all that, it just goes back to the fact that it isn't a competition. The plan doesn't have to be good or clever than what Jimmy the City Planner could come up with, it just has to work, and that doesn't take much in a game where half the fun is in the plan going sideways anyway. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, but again, that doesn't make it a universal. </p><p></p><p>And particularly so when you're loading the question. You're talking about efficiency in terms of seeing all this plot and stuff happen, and that isn't actually important to everyone. </p><p></p><p>Quite a lot of people are there for the roleplay, and aren't going to care if we're speedily running through 5 adventures in 3 hours. After all, a lot of new RPG players these days, almost all of them in my experience, are coming from places like Critical Role or Dimension 20, and screaming through plots or adventures isn't what's appealing to these players. </p><p></p><p>And in the greater scheme of things, people don't end up playing DND or other rpgs for decades just because they're time inefficient or whatever. They play that long because they're there for more than just a plot or some speedy adventure. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This kind of wishy washy argument can be thrown at anything you want, so its not particularly good. </p><p></p><p>And especially so given the exclusionary argument is completely fictional, conjured I'm sure by your hindsight to discredit what I've been saying. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well for one you seem to be losing the plot here. Its not a replacement, its an alternative way to structure a game as a whole to support different kinds of experiences, and one I'll add isn't some newfangled thing I came up with. </p><p></p><p>I'm literally describing how OSR games work.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So again you're deliberately exaggerating and misrepresenting what I say. That is not a constructive way to argue and you should reconsider. </p><p></p><p>And for two, its been my experience that people like yourself don't actually <em>want</em> to reach any mutual understanding, because that would violate the dogma. And given what you've said in response here, that isn't an inaccurate assessment of you. </p><p></p><p>I went in pretty deep on discussing the flashback from a design perspective and peeling away all the chaff so we could examine what it does and how it does it, and compare and contrast with other takes on the exact same mechanic. I explicitly offered up my own game design for scrutiny to do this, explicitly so that it couldn't be claimed I'm just asserting things without evidence. </p><p></p><p>Your response was to completely ignore all of it. Do you <em>really</em> think you're going to make me or anyone else come around when you argue like that? </p><p></p><p>I get into these discussions because I actually like talking about game design and really digging into things, and especially so with regards to games like BITD because they <em>do</em> have good things to offer from a design perspective, and thats evidenced by how much its influenced my own game as I've become more learned about design and how to critically examine games at a mechanical level. </p><p></p><p>But with you folks its like you just really want to hear nothing but praise for the game and any dissent has to be quashed by any means necessary, even if you trip over yourselves. Its all a pseudo form of dialogue that never goes anywhere and just goes round and round in circles until somebody either gets kicked out of the thread or they give up. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Did it or did it not exist until the mechanic was engaged? </p><p></p><p>Rhetorical question, it did not. Scrodinger's Mechanic isn't a thing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Emberashh, post: 9334865, member: 7040941"] Well for one, hindsight isn't a skill or something you can practice. And more than that, the actual benefit of hindsight is about learning from your past experiences and applying them to future experiences. So if the flashback is supposed to be leveraging hindsight, then its completely backwards, and no, it does not fit anything I've said. Please don't try to play twisty word games; I meant what I said and I explained my reasoning. It doesn't suddenly mean something else. This is why we have descriptive roleplaying. You do not need rules to [I]talk[/I]. Yes, that's called player skill and it doesn't conflict with power fantasies. And its completely beside the point, because you're not getting what I'm even talking about. Again, I called out [I]social combat[/I]. That is what's a dead end. When I say you don't need rules to [I]talk[/I], I'm saying that literally. You do not need rules to talk to your real life friends sitting across a table from you or on a discord call. And keep in mind too, what you point out goes the other way and is just as bad. If someone makes an eloquent speech IRL and the game forces that effort to be wasted because of a dice roll, that's still [I]bad[/I]. But the rhetoric you stumbled into would pose that situation as a-okay, when it really shouldn't be. This just tells me you have a low opinion of what people are capable of. And also that you don't get these games aren't competitions. If you've set yourself to be in a mindset where any of that matters, you've already taken on an extremely bad attitude to have in RPGs. I mean, knock on wood, but I've literally run RPGs for kids with downs syndrome. You wanna take a guess what those kids didn't have an issue doing? Expectations are important too. I didn't expect them to be conjuring up Oceans 14 (not that we did a heist anyway; they wanted to slay and capture dragons and slay and capture dragons they did. No easy feat in 5e), but they weren't sitting there at a loss either. And in fact that particular group were really big on the whole story telling aspects because despite their conditions they were all pretty voracious, if slow, readers. Putting ones opinion of an aetherial other person so low that you put them lower than the capabilities of children with debilitating cognitive issues, is just gross. And besides all that, it just goes back to the fact that it isn't a competition. The plan doesn't have to be good or clever than what Jimmy the City Planner could come up with, it just has to work, and that doesn't take much in a game where half the fun is in the plan going sideways anyway. Sure, but again, that doesn't make it a universal. And particularly so when you're loading the question. You're talking about efficiency in terms of seeing all this plot and stuff happen, and that isn't actually important to everyone. Quite a lot of people are there for the roleplay, and aren't going to care if we're speedily running through 5 adventures in 3 hours. After all, a lot of new RPG players these days, almost all of them in my experience, are coming from places like Critical Role or Dimension 20, and screaming through plots or adventures isn't what's appealing to these players. And in the greater scheme of things, people don't end up playing DND or other rpgs for decades just because they're time inefficient or whatever. They play that long because they're there for more than just a plot or some speedy adventure. This kind of wishy washy argument can be thrown at anything you want, so its not particularly good. And especially so given the exclusionary argument is completely fictional, conjured I'm sure by your hindsight to discredit what I've been saying. Well for one you seem to be losing the plot here. Its not a replacement, its an alternative way to structure a game as a whole to support different kinds of experiences, and one I'll add isn't some newfangled thing I came up with. I'm literally describing how OSR games work. So again you're deliberately exaggerating and misrepresenting what I say. That is not a constructive way to argue and you should reconsider. And for two, its been my experience that people like yourself don't actually [I]want[/I] to reach any mutual understanding, because that would violate the dogma. And given what you've said in response here, that isn't an inaccurate assessment of you. I went in pretty deep on discussing the flashback from a design perspective and peeling away all the chaff so we could examine what it does and how it does it, and compare and contrast with other takes on the exact same mechanic. I explicitly offered up my own game design for scrutiny to do this, explicitly so that it couldn't be claimed I'm just asserting things without evidence. Your response was to completely ignore all of it. Do you [I]really[/I] think you're going to make me or anyone else come around when you argue like that? I get into these discussions because I actually like talking about game design and really digging into things, and especially so with regards to games like BITD because they [I]do[/I] have good things to offer from a design perspective, and thats evidenced by how much its influenced my own game as I've become more learned about design and how to critically examine games at a mechanical level. But with you folks its like you just really want to hear nothing but praise for the game and any dissent has to be quashed by any means necessary, even if you trip over yourselves. Its all a pseudo form of dialogue that never goes anywhere and just goes round and round in circles until somebody either gets kicked out of the thread or they give up. Did it or did it not exist until the mechanic was engaged? Rhetorical question, it did not. Scrodinger's Mechanic isn't a thing. [/QUOTE]
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