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Is it fun to plan a heist?
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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 9334813" data-attributes="member: 20564"><p>Okay, who's a human who is actually thinking? The player. Are they better at hindsight then foresight? Yes. Flashback mechanics fit what players are better at better than none.</p><p></p><p>Who's a "human being in a heist fiction"? The characters. Are the characters relying on hindsight in their adventures? No. The flashback are things that happened previously for the character.</p><p></p><p>In other words, flashbacks meet all of your requirements better than no flashback mechanism.</p><p></p><p>Also, you really should have rules to talk. Because just like the asthmatic math major can play a hulking barbarian, the shy stuttering introvert should be able to play their power fantasy of a silver tongued con man. I don't require the player of a ranger to be explain the woodcraft of picking a good campsite to deal with both weather and hide it from hobgoblin patrols.</p><p></p><p>D&D is a blend of player ability and character ability. Combat is player tactics and character numbers. Anything you arbitrarily decide there shouldn't be rules for, you are really saying "characters shouldn't be able to do this well unless their players can do it well". And that's the exact opposite of escape fantasy where we play mighty wizard casting spells and sly rogues jumping on the back of dragons.</p><p></p><p>Oh, hey, though that reminds me. That's another reason we need Flashbacks - to allow players who aren't so great at planning to play mastermind characters. Which should be just as valid as my tone deaf self playing a bard.</p><p></p><p>Thanks, your bad example about denying people mechanics to allow their character to be good as something even if they aren't brought up an additional reason why every game that spends a decent amount of time on planning needs rules for it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>One of my regulars is a teacher who gets up at 5:30am. We stop at 10pm. We gather online at 7pm after dinner and are social for a bit, leaving about 2.5 hours for play. During the summer that spikes up to 3.5 hours to play. I don't believe that I'm in some exceptionally small minority - lots of people play weeknights after work.</p><p></p><p>So, we know that for some reasonable sized group of players, time efficiency is important. We have a rule that can help it greatly, and can be completely ignored by those who don't want to use it. Do we add this?</p><p></p><p>Of course. It improves the experience or is neutral.</p><p></p><p>I know people who don't like playing spellcasters. They don't play spellcasters. But they don't push to exclude players by saying there shouldn't be spellcasters. And that's what your arguments feel like. Having a flashback mechanism allows the table who want to use it the benefits, but takes nothing away from the table who don't. So as a net positive for the playerbase at the whole, arguing against it seems exclusionary.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, I've talked about how I Flashback provides a lot of benefits. If you are saying "You can flashback, I just don't want rules for it", then I'll doff my hat to you. You'll still be wrong - I explained why with the example of RPGs with no rules and why rules are good to provide consistency, shared understanding, and take a load off the DM. But at least you'll be in the right direction.</p><p></p><p>But if you're saying that "by no tools except these, you can't do things like flashbacks", then NO, you literally can't create the same experience with all of the benefits I've explained. So this is not a worthwhile replacement and worth no discussion.</p><p></p><p>I'm deleting the skill discussion - there is nothing here I can respond to because none of it in the slightest addresses the point about flashbacks I have made again and again. It talks about other things with planning which I have no problems with.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If no one you talk to can see eye to eye with you on this, the common element is you. Are you saying every single other person you talked to about this is wrong and you are the only one who is correct? Let me know, because I don't think I would have a chance to change your mind if everyone else has also failed.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It didn't.</p><p></p><p>Nothing is conjured into the gameworld after the fact. That's who point of it being a flashback. It was done previously. It just was done off camera without those outside the gameworld, such as the DM or players knowing about it. But in the gameworld, it happened before. And it needs to follow all the rules and sense of the gameworld.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Blue, post: 9334813, member: 20564"] Okay, who's a human who is actually thinking? The player. Are they better at hindsight then foresight? Yes. Flashback mechanics fit what players are better at better than none. Who's a "human being in a heist fiction"? The characters. Are the characters relying on hindsight in their adventures? No. The flashback are things that happened previously for the character. In other words, flashbacks meet all of your requirements better than no flashback mechanism. Also, you really should have rules to talk. Because just like the asthmatic math major can play a hulking barbarian, the shy stuttering introvert should be able to play their power fantasy of a silver tongued con man. I don't require the player of a ranger to be explain the woodcraft of picking a good campsite to deal with both weather and hide it from hobgoblin patrols. D&D is a blend of player ability and character ability. Combat is player tactics and character numbers. Anything you arbitrarily decide there shouldn't be rules for, you are really saying "characters shouldn't be able to do this well unless their players can do it well". And that's the exact opposite of escape fantasy where we play mighty wizard casting spells and sly rogues jumping on the back of dragons. Oh, hey, though that reminds me. That's another reason we need Flashbacks - to allow players who aren't so great at planning to play mastermind characters. Which should be just as valid as my tone deaf self playing a bard. Thanks, your bad example about denying people mechanics to allow their character to be good as something even if they aren't brought up an additional reason why every game that spends a decent amount of time on planning needs rules for it. One of my regulars is a teacher who gets up at 5:30am. We stop at 10pm. We gather online at 7pm after dinner and are social for a bit, leaving about 2.5 hours for play. During the summer that spikes up to 3.5 hours to play. I don't believe that I'm in some exceptionally small minority - lots of people play weeknights after work. So, we know that for some reasonable sized group of players, time efficiency is important. We have a rule that can help it greatly, and can be completely ignored by those who don't want to use it. Do we add this? Of course. It improves the experience or is neutral. I know people who don't like playing spellcasters. They don't play spellcasters. But they don't push to exclude players by saying there shouldn't be spellcasters. And that's what your arguments feel like. Having a flashback mechanism allows the table who want to use it the benefits, but takes nothing away from the table who don't. So as a net positive for the playerbase at the whole, arguing against it seems exclusionary. Okay, I've talked about how I Flashback provides a lot of benefits. If you are saying "You can flashback, I just don't want rules for it", then I'll doff my hat to you. You'll still be wrong - I explained why with the example of RPGs with no rules and why rules are good to provide consistency, shared understanding, and take a load off the DM. But at least you'll be in the right direction. But if you're saying that "by no tools except these, you can't do things like flashbacks", then NO, you literally can't create the same experience with all of the benefits I've explained. So this is not a worthwhile replacement and worth no discussion. I'm deleting the skill discussion - there is nothing here I can respond to because none of it in the slightest addresses the point about flashbacks I have made again and again. It talks about other things with planning which I have no problems with. If no one you talk to can see eye to eye with you on this, the common element is you. Are you saying every single other person you talked to about this is wrong and you are the only one who is correct? Let me know, because I don't think I would have a chance to change your mind if everyone else has also failed. It didn't. Nothing is conjured into the gameworld after the fact. That's who point of it being a flashback. It was done previously. It just was done off camera without those outside the gameworld, such as the DM or players knowing about it. But in the gameworld, it happened before. And it needs to follow all the rules and sense of the gameworld. [/QUOTE]
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