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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Inquiry: How do 4E fans feel about 4E Essentials?
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8440678" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Essentials certainly continued with the good monster vibes, though more in terms of its updated MVs vs actually anything new in the "how to do it" department. Honestly I never got a DMK, so maybe I have missed some gem of wisdom there... Still it was good.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure what is 'less good' about 'henchmen types'. The classic henchman is in 4e parlance a 'companion character'. That specific formulation was a DMG2 thing, but it works quite well. Prior to that, there just wasn't really a methodology there. You could presumably build stat blocks for NPCs, but there wasn't specific guidance on what made a good ally. I guess you could also use the PC rules, which always remains an option anyway if someone really desires. Again, I don't know if DMK has anything to say about this. The rules in MME that outline an approach to HIRELINGS is a whole other kettle of fish. I think it works, its an approach, it is intended to make them very 'bit player' types, and it is admittedly a bit abstract in some respects.</p><p></p><p>I think 4e has VERY STRONG guidance on making classes, PPs, and EDs, at least in the sense that it clearly delineates both their mechanical structure and provides ample thematic structures on which to build them. I agree, nothing is written in the books on this, but AFAIK, aside from 2e, there never has been anything in any edition. I'd most strongly agree that 4e makes it HARD to develop a class in the sense of requiring a lot of material in the form of powers and probably feats. OTOH the fact that 4e classes are almost UNIVERSALLY solid, even the 'bad' ones in various people's estimation being only marginally not so good, that it is clear designers were on very firm ground when making these things. The combination of Role, Power Source, and the general AEDU structure pretty well puts it on rails! </p><p></p><p>I think the same goes for the PPs and EDs, which are pretty simple and straightforward (Themes too). While some are better than others, mechanically, there are not too many that are really thematic 'drek'. I suspect there's no PP that isn't appealing to someone and enabling something they want to do. They may have avoided many of them for optimization reasons, which is the one area where they fall a bit unevenly, but again even the bad ones are only 'not so good'. </p><p></p><p>I don't think it was 'wing it' at all, I think it was "look at what we did, follow our lead" coupled with a very consistent execution by the core team of what they did, and the scaffolds mentioned above.</p><p></p><p>I think they were actually LESS successful when it came to the monster side in this area. While they DID give extensive rules, they were kind of convoluted and certainly the DMG1 era ones don't work all that well (though oddly if MM1 had followed them it would have improved most of the monsters in it). I think it was another instance of "bake it a bit more please, folks!"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8440678, member: 82106"] Essentials certainly continued with the good monster vibes, though more in terms of its updated MVs vs actually anything new in the "how to do it" department. Honestly I never got a DMK, so maybe I have missed some gem of wisdom there... Still it was good. I'm not sure what is 'less good' about 'henchmen types'. The classic henchman is in 4e parlance a 'companion character'. That specific formulation was a DMG2 thing, but it works quite well. Prior to that, there just wasn't really a methodology there. You could presumably build stat blocks for NPCs, but there wasn't specific guidance on what made a good ally. I guess you could also use the PC rules, which always remains an option anyway if someone really desires. Again, I don't know if DMK has anything to say about this. The rules in MME that outline an approach to HIRELINGS is a whole other kettle of fish. I think it works, its an approach, it is intended to make them very 'bit player' types, and it is admittedly a bit abstract in some respects. I think 4e has VERY STRONG guidance on making classes, PPs, and EDs, at least in the sense that it clearly delineates both their mechanical structure and provides ample thematic structures on which to build them. I agree, nothing is written in the books on this, but AFAIK, aside from 2e, there never has been anything in any edition. I'd most strongly agree that 4e makes it HARD to develop a class in the sense of requiring a lot of material in the form of powers and probably feats. OTOH the fact that 4e classes are almost UNIVERSALLY solid, even the 'bad' ones in various people's estimation being only marginally not so good, that it is clear designers were on very firm ground when making these things. The combination of Role, Power Source, and the general AEDU structure pretty well puts it on rails! I think the same goes for the PPs and EDs, which are pretty simple and straightforward (Themes too). While some are better than others, mechanically, there are not too many that are really thematic 'drek'. I suspect there's no PP that isn't appealing to someone and enabling something they want to do. They may have avoided many of them for optimization reasons, which is the one area where they fall a bit unevenly, but again even the bad ones are only 'not so good'. I don't think it was 'wing it' at all, I think it was "look at what we did, follow our lead" coupled with a very consistent execution by the core team of what they did, and the scaffolds mentioned above. I think they were actually LESS successful when it came to the monster side in this area. While they DID give extensive rules, they were kind of convoluted and certainly the DMG1 era ones don't work all that well (though oddly if MM1 had followed them it would have improved most of the monsters in it). I think it was another instance of "bake it a bit more please, folks!" [/QUOTE]
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