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Does anyone else have a problem with D20 missile?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 217921" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I'm beginning to have a little bit of a problem with the way that D20 handles missile weapons.</p><p></p><p>Maybe I'm missing something but...</p><p></p><p>Suppose relatively low level fighters engage in combat. One is armed with a melee weapon, and the other with a bow. In general, what we should expect (and desire if what we desire is realism of some sort) is that the fighter with the bow has an extreme advantage at any range beyond the reach of the fighter with the melee weapon, and vica versa, the fighter with the melee weapon has an extreme advantage once he gets his opponent within his reach.</p><p></p><p>But, that does not seem to be the situation that we have.</p><p></p><p>As the only party that can attack, the archer does have an extreme (indeed absolute) advantage beyond reach, BUT, once the fighter with the melee weapon closes, the archer is under no real pressure (that I can see) to drop his bow and switch over to a melee weapon.</p><p></p><p>Suppose the swordsman takes a swing at the archer on his turn. The archer then, on his turn, takes a full attack action and a 5' step. The 5' adjustment - which doesn't provoke an AoO - brings him out of the reach of the swordsman and he can now attack without provoking an AoO. Thus, we have 1 attack per 1 attack (or at higher levels equivalent iterative attacks). And, because you can equip yourself with a bow that allows you to add you strength bonus to your damage, neither fighter has a significant advantage in average damage per attack. Granted, the swordsman could be using a two handed weapon or a shield to gain a minor advantage over the archer, BUT, the archer for his part could be using both masterwork arrows and a masterwork bow (whose enhancement bonuses stack) or at higher levels both magical arrows and magical bows to mitigate or elimenate the advantage of the swordsman. And, if you add to this the readily available feat Rapid Shot to the list of advantages that the archer has, you rapidly reach a point where the advantage of the swordsman in melee is insufficiently large. In fact, it is so small, that I can scarcely see a reason to heavily invest in melee feats when archery feats are so much more generally applicable to any combat situation - especially at low levels before Power Attack becomes really nasty.</p><p></p><p>One might object that the archer has a -4 penalty to hit a target engaged in melee, but a close reading of the rules on page 124 of the PH will show that for these purposes a target engaged with you (and only with you) is not engaged in melee, and that the rule doesn't apply. Even if it did, -4 to hit seems a small price to pay for being able to let off a barrage of arrows while a guy hacks at you at will, and of course the Precise Shot feat would take care of the problem.</p><p></p><p>I don't mind having archers opporating from a support role, even a lethal and decisive one, but the idea of a group of archers engaging in melee combat bugs the heck out of me.</p><p></p><p>I'm considering implementing house rules as follows:</p><p></p><p>1) If you have been attacked by a melee weapon since your last action, you have a -4 penalty to hit with a missile weapon -whether you were struck or not - if your attacker is not at the time of your attack helpless. (This reflects the fact that you must bob and weave, and must have been bobbing and weaving, to maintain a defence. It remains true even if you step away, because the turn based nature of the game is an abstraction of the real time underlying reality. In this reality, you do not step away while your attacker remains stationary, and then your attacker follows while you remain stationary, but you and he move away together like two fencers moving back and forth.)</p><p></p><p>2) Someone that is engaged in melee with you is engaged in melee per the rules on page 124 of the PH. This penalty stacks with the penalty from 1 above. Since the Precise Shot feat only elimenates the penalty if you are shooting at a enemy engaged with your ally, it does not elimenate either this penalty or the penalty from 1. This penalty reflects that if you are in reach of an opponent, he can more easily ward off, deflect, or block a missile attack than a series of melee moves leading to an attack. (For proof, try it yourself.)</p><p></p><p>3) You have a +2 bonus to hit an opponent in melee who has a readied missile weapon, unless that opponent has taken a full defensive action (ie is not attacking with the weapon). (This reflects the fact that a readied melee weapon is in fact defensive as well as offensive, and is used to threaten and parry. Presumably, the archer could forgo this penalty but at the cost of allowing his melee attacker a free attack on his (quite fragile) weapon.)</p><p></p><p>What do you think?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 217921, member: 4937"] I'm beginning to have a little bit of a problem with the way that D20 handles missile weapons. Maybe I'm missing something but... Suppose relatively low level fighters engage in combat. One is armed with a melee weapon, and the other with a bow. In general, what we should expect (and desire if what we desire is realism of some sort) is that the fighter with the bow has an extreme advantage at any range beyond the reach of the fighter with the melee weapon, and vica versa, the fighter with the melee weapon has an extreme advantage once he gets his opponent within his reach. But, that does not seem to be the situation that we have. As the only party that can attack, the archer does have an extreme (indeed absolute) advantage beyond reach, BUT, once the fighter with the melee weapon closes, the archer is under no real pressure (that I can see) to drop his bow and switch over to a melee weapon. Suppose the swordsman takes a swing at the archer on his turn. The archer then, on his turn, takes a full attack action and a 5' step. The 5' adjustment - which doesn't provoke an AoO - brings him out of the reach of the swordsman and he can now attack without provoking an AoO. Thus, we have 1 attack per 1 attack (or at higher levels equivalent iterative attacks). And, because you can equip yourself with a bow that allows you to add you strength bonus to your damage, neither fighter has a significant advantage in average damage per attack. Granted, the swordsman could be using a two handed weapon or a shield to gain a minor advantage over the archer, BUT, the archer for his part could be using both masterwork arrows and a masterwork bow (whose enhancement bonuses stack) or at higher levels both magical arrows and magical bows to mitigate or elimenate the advantage of the swordsman. And, if you add to this the readily available feat Rapid Shot to the list of advantages that the archer has, you rapidly reach a point where the advantage of the swordsman in melee is insufficiently large. In fact, it is so small, that I can scarcely see a reason to heavily invest in melee feats when archery feats are so much more generally applicable to any combat situation - especially at low levels before Power Attack becomes really nasty. One might object that the archer has a -4 penalty to hit a target engaged in melee, but a close reading of the rules on page 124 of the PH will show that for these purposes a target engaged with you (and only with you) is not engaged in melee, and that the rule doesn't apply. Even if it did, -4 to hit seems a small price to pay for being able to let off a barrage of arrows while a guy hacks at you at will, and of course the Precise Shot feat would take care of the problem. I don't mind having archers opporating from a support role, even a lethal and decisive one, but the idea of a group of archers engaging in melee combat bugs the heck out of me. I'm considering implementing house rules as follows: 1) If you have been attacked by a melee weapon since your last action, you have a -4 penalty to hit with a missile weapon -whether you were struck or not - if your attacker is not at the time of your attack helpless. (This reflects the fact that you must bob and weave, and must have been bobbing and weaving, to maintain a defence. It remains true even if you step away, because the turn based nature of the game is an abstraction of the real time underlying reality. In this reality, you do not step away while your attacker remains stationary, and then your attacker follows while you remain stationary, but you and he move away together like two fencers moving back and forth.) 2) Someone that is engaged in melee with you is engaged in melee per the rules on page 124 of the PH. This penalty stacks with the penalty from 1 above. Since the Precise Shot feat only elimenates the penalty if you are shooting at a enemy engaged with your ally, it does not elimenate either this penalty or the penalty from 1. This penalty reflects that if you are in reach of an opponent, he can more easily ward off, deflect, or block a missile attack than a series of melee moves leading to an attack. (For proof, try it yourself.) 3) You have a +2 bonus to hit an opponent in melee who has a readied missile weapon, unless that opponent has taken a full defensive action (ie is not attacking with the weapon). (This reflects the fact that a readied melee weapon is in fact defensive as well as offensive, and is used to threaten and parry. Presumably, the archer could forgo this penalty but at the cost of allowing his melee attacker a free attack on his (quite fragile) weapon.) What do you think? [/QUOTE]
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