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General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Are Bard Hymns Overpowered?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ondath" data-source="post: 9077146" data-attributes="member: 7031770"><p>Folks, I really don't want the thread to devolve into an aggressive argument, especially since the reason I opened this thread was to get feedback from people who designed/playtested the A5E Bard and they've yet to write anything.</p><p></p><p></p><p>With that said, I want to push back on this. 5E doesn't always measure the power of a spell by the number of people it affects. Bless is a 1st-level spell that targets multiple people, because the designers thought a +1d4 bonus for three people is balanced for a 1st-level spell. Haste is a 3rd-level spell that targets a single creature, because getting an extra action is pretty powerful - even for only one creature, so the spell remains single-targeted even at 3rd spell level. So, I really don't think we can make a blanket statement like "affecting the entire party is comparable to a 3rd to 5th level spell".</p><p></p><p>Another big thing is that Bardic Inspiration as a resource is not really comparable to spell slots. You get spell slots once per long rest, and the number you get - even as a full caster at high levels - is fairly limited. At 5th level, the Bard only has 2 3rd-level spell slots. But that same Bard can use Bastions of Justice (assuming a CHA of +4 and that the party takes 2 Short Rests) 12 times. If they chose additional creatures as their hymn focus (effectively multiplying the hymn's effect by 4), their Hymn has the effectiveness of an ability that says "One creature gets a +4 bonus to all saves for one round", <strong>times 48</strong>. This is absolutely not comparable to a 3rd-level spell that the Bard can cast two times at the same level.</p><p></p><p>Or let me give another example to show that the Hymns do not scale to spell level in any meaningful way, and that this isn't just a problem with a few edge cases: At 17th level, a Bard can affect 5 additional targets, and can activate two Hymns at the same time by using 2 uses of Bardic Inspiration. So the Bard could give both disadvantage to enemy attackers (Overbearing Rhythm) and advantage to all saves (Carry the Spirit) to every party member by just using two uses of Bardic Inspiration. Given 15 uses per day, the Bard can give this for <strong>7 rounds to 6 people</strong>. Disadvantage to all attackers and advantage to all saves is basically <strong>half of what Foresight, a 9th-level spell</strong> can do. The Bard can cast Foresight only <strong>once per day, and only to one target</strong>. They can give half of Foresight's abilities to <strong>6 people for 7 rounds</strong>.</p><p></p><p>All classes are buffed, yes. But not to this degree. The buffs are usually in the Exploration and Social encounter pillars due to Knacks/Tricks/etc. that each class gets, giving them the kind of out of combat capabilities their O5E counterparts don't have. Almost every martial is buffed thanks to the existence of Maneuvers. But I don't think any class gets the kind of blanket improvement like Bards get with Hymns.</p><p></p><p>In fact, there is a class whose comparable powers in O5E got nerfed: The <s>Paladin</s>Herald. The O5E Paladin gets two Auras, the Aura of Protection and the Aura of Courage. Aura of Protection is basically comparable to the Hymn Bastions of Justice, except it's always on, but its range is more limited (15 ft, 30 ft at Level 18). Aura of Protection gives you straight up immunity to the frightened condition at Level 10. In O5E, both of these Auras stay on together. In A5E, the Herald can choose either of the two Auras at level 6, but can't have them both at the same time. So the A5E Herald has to choose between frighten immunity and a +5 bonus to all saves, while the O5E counterpart had both options on at all times.</p><p></p><p>So it's not just that the Bard is stronger than the O5E Bard, or that every class got buffed by the new system. It's that this subsystem in particular has some unexpected synergies built into it that make it way more effective than it initially looks.</p><p></p><p>Now, I've yet to run a full-on A5E campaign (but I trust [USER=7034129]@steels12[/USER]'s table experience), so I do not feel confident trying to rebalance these options by ear. Having said that, my primary concern really lies with the "+CHA additional targets" option. Perhaps one way to balance this option would be to say that you can choose additional targets for spending one more Bardic Inspiration use for each new target (so targeting the whole party would take all your uses of Bardic Inspiration until the next Short Rest?).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ondath, post: 9077146, member: 7031770"] Folks, I really don't want the thread to devolve into an aggressive argument, especially since the reason I opened this thread was to get feedback from people who designed/playtested the A5E Bard and they've yet to write anything. With that said, I want to push back on this. 5E doesn't always measure the power of a spell by the number of people it affects. Bless is a 1st-level spell that targets multiple people, because the designers thought a +1d4 bonus for three people is balanced for a 1st-level spell. Haste is a 3rd-level spell that targets a single creature, because getting an extra action is pretty powerful - even for only one creature, so the spell remains single-targeted even at 3rd spell level. So, I really don't think we can make a blanket statement like "affecting the entire party is comparable to a 3rd to 5th level spell". Another big thing is that Bardic Inspiration as a resource is not really comparable to spell slots. You get spell slots once per long rest, and the number you get - even as a full caster at high levels - is fairly limited. At 5th level, the Bard only has 2 3rd-level spell slots. But that same Bard can use Bastions of Justice (assuming a CHA of +4 and that the party takes 2 Short Rests) 12 times. If they chose additional creatures as their hymn focus (effectively multiplying the hymn's effect by 4), their Hymn has the effectiveness of an ability that says "One creature gets a +4 bonus to all saves for one round", [B]times 48[/B]. This is absolutely not comparable to a 3rd-level spell that the Bard can cast two times at the same level. Or let me give another example to show that the Hymns do not scale to spell level in any meaningful way, and that this isn't just a problem with a few edge cases: At 17th level, a Bard can affect 5 additional targets, and can activate two Hymns at the same time by using 2 uses of Bardic Inspiration. So the Bard could give both disadvantage to enemy attackers (Overbearing Rhythm) and advantage to all saves (Carry the Spirit) to every party member by just using two uses of Bardic Inspiration. Given 15 uses per day, the Bard can give this for [B]7 rounds to 6 people[/B]. Disadvantage to all attackers and advantage to all saves is basically [B]half of what Foresight, a 9th-level spell[/B] can do. The Bard can cast Foresight only [B]once per day, and only to one target[/B]. They can give half of Foresight's abilities to [B]6 people for 7 rounds[/B]. All classes are buffed, yes. But not to this degree. The buffs are usually in the Exploration and Social encounter pillars due to Knacks/Tricks/etc. that each class gets, giving them the kind of out of combat capabilities their O5E counterparts don't have. Almost every martial is buffed thanks to the existence of Maneuvers. But I don't think any class gets the kind of blanket improvement like Bards get with Hymns. In fact, there is a class whose comparable powers in O5E got nerfed: The [S]Paladin[/S]Herald. The O5E Paladin gets two Auras, the Aura of Protection and the Aura of Courage. Aura of Protection is basically comparable to the Hymn Bastions of Justice, except it's always on, but its range is more limited (15 ft, 30 ft at Level 18). Aura of Protection gives you straight up immunity to the frightened condition at Level 10. In O5E, both of these Auras stay on together. In A5E, the Herald can choose either of the two Auras at level 6, but can't have them both at the same time. So the A5E Herald has to choose between frighten immunity and a +5 bonus to all saves, while the O5E counterpart had both options on at all times. So it's not just that the Bard is stronger than the O5E Bard, or that every class got buffed by the new system. It's that this subsystem in particular has some unexpected synergies built into it that make it way more effective than it initially looks. Now, I've yet to run a full-on A5E campaign (but I trust [USER=7034129]@steels12[/USER]'s table experience), so I do not feel confident trying to rebalance these options by ear. Having said that, my primary concern really lies with the "+CHA additional targets" option. Perhaps one way to balance this option would be to say that you can choose additional targets for spending one more Bardic Inspiration use for each new target (so targeting the whole party would take all your uses of Bardic Inspiration until the next Short Rest?). [/QUOTE]
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Are Bard Hymns Overpowered?
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