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General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Are Bard Hymns Overpowered?
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<blockquote data-quote="steels12" data-source="post: 9076829" data-attributes="member: 7034129"><p>This is about as bad faith as it gets, I apologize if I gave you a reason to be so uncharitable in your interpretation. I never at all said to get rid of hymns or that they didn't fit the bard at all. In fact, at the bottom of my post I explained that I even retuned every hymn for my own party. I guess I can't argue with what amounts to "lol you're wrong" and "I know of at least 5 niche meta builds that are even worse" which is funny because one of the examples you gave, the twin spell polymorph, is literally an example I provided as to why this was a problem that Bards can do.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Technically speaking, Hymns do not mention anywhere RAW that they rely on a creature's senses. Outside of the sentence "It can be expressed in any way you like" (p. 123), and even when describing the audience of a hymn (p. 124) it only says that "Unless stated otherwise a battle hymn does not have a target until you choose one, and each targets a single creature within 30 feet. You may choose to target a creature at any point, but after targeting a battle hymn its target cannot be changed." There is no mention of perception of the beneficiary of the hymn being required at all, that's more of a RaI ruling and, in theory, a hymn is not tied to your particular specialization of performance (which is a soft restriction that Arts have later on), so there would be nothing stopping a bard from going from the pan-flute to dancing a jig if their party goes deaf. In regards to intepreting it as a spell, the rules only state, on the same page, "Performing a battle hymn requires your concentration, as though you were casting a spell." On Dispel Magic: "You scour the magic from your target. Any spell cast on the target ends if it was cast with a spell slot of 3rd-level or lower." The wording is intentional here, and always has been for 5th edition as well, Dispel magic strictly works on spells cast from a spell slot, of which Hymns do not count and would not RAW be susceptible. All of this is, of course, ignoring the fact that it would be ridiculous to assume it's reasonable that the DM preps Blindness/Deafness in a good number of combats that they deal with specifically as a counter.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="steels12, post: 9076829, member: 7034129"] This is about as bad faith as it gets, I apologize if I gave you a reason to be so uncharitable in your interpretation. I never at all said to get rid of hymns or that they didn't fit the bard at all. In fact, at the bottom of my post I explained that I even retuned every hymn for my own party. I guess I can't argue with what amounts to "lol you're wrong" and "I know of at least 5 niche meta builds that are even worse" which is funny because one of the examples you gave, the twin spell polymorph, is literally an example I provided as to why this was a problem that Bards can do. Technically speaking, Hymns do not mention anywhere RAW that they rely on a creature's senses. Outside of the sentence "It can be expressed in any way you like" (p. 123), and even when describing the audience of a hymn (p. 124) it only says that "Unless stated otherwise a battle hymn does not have a target until you choose one, and each targets a single creature within 30 feet. You may choose to target a creature at any point, but after targeting a battle hymn its target cannot be changed." There is no mention of perception of the beneficiary of the hymn being required at all, that's more of a RaI ruling and, in theory, a hymn is not tied to your particular specialization of performance (which is a soft restriction that Arts have later on), so there would be nothing stopping a bard from going from the pan-flute to dancing a jig if their party goes deaf. In regards to intepreting it as a spell, the rules only state, on the same page, "Performing a battle hymn requires your concentration, as though you were casting a spell." On Dispel Magic: "You scour the magic from your target. Any spell cast on the target ends if it was cast with a spell slot of 3rd-level or lower." The wording is intentional here, and always has been for 5th edition as well, Dispel magic strictly works on spells cast from a spell slot, of which Hymns do not count and would not RAW be susceptible. All of this is, of course, ignoring the fact that it would be ridiculous to assume it's reasonable that the DM preps Blindness/Deafness in a good number of combats that they deal with specifically as a counter. [/QUOTE]
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Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Are Bard Hymns Overpowered?
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