D&D 5E Alchemical Savant and Greenflame Blade

[Gorck]

The thought of rolling 1d4 for Magic Missile and using it as the damage for each missile seems as strange to me as casting Fireball, rolling 1d6, and then multiplying the result by 8 to get the total damage. But maybe that’s just me. I’ve been playing D&D off and on for over twenty years and this is the first time I’ve ever seen it suggested that a player wouldn’t roll separately for each missile. And yet, I can now see how that rule on page 196 could be interpreted that way.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

The thought of rolling 1d4 for Magic Missile and using it as the damage for each missile seems as strange to me as casting Fireball, rolling 1d6, and then multiplying the result by 8 to get the total damage. But maybe that’s just me. I’ve been playing D&D off and on for over twenty years and this is the first time I’ve ever seen it suggested that a player wouldn’t roll separately for each missile. And yet, I can now see how that rule on page 196 could be interpreted that way.

For me, rolling 1d4 for each missile is as strange as rolling 8d6 for every target in the fireball.
Essentially, magic missile is an area of effect spell that can affect some targets more than once.

This means that some feature (like alchemical savant) make magic missile a lot more powerful. I'm happy with that.

 

[oldmateJax0r]

If you can change the damage type and if you are using the RAW ruling for magic missile, I would say yes. But there is no way I am using the RAW ruling for magic missile in my games.

Unfortunately, magic missile and alchemical savant are star-crossed. There seems to be a synergy there, but never the twain shall meet.

You could get access to and change the damage type of magic missile to, say, fire, by taking 2 levels of scribes wizard. However, magic missile would not count as an artificer spell for you, and so you cannot use your alchemist’s supplies as a spellcasting focus for magic missile, and so you cannot apply the bonus damage from alchemical savant. No, I don’t buy the argument that because alchemist’s supplies contain a stirring rod, and a wizard can use a ‘rod’ as spellcasting focus, you can get around this. That argument is essentially saying that a stirring rod is equivalent to both ‘alchemist’s supplies’ and the ‘rod’ that is mentioned as among the wizard spellcasting foci options, which is clearly untrue.

You could try to get around this by taking the artificer initiate feat, which allows you to choose a tool proficiency (e.g. alchemist’s supplies) and then thereafter allows you to use that tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell that uses intelligence. Casting magic missile as a scribes wizard still uses intelligence, so with the artificer initiate feat couldn’t we use our alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus for magic missile, and thus benefit from alchemical savant? Unfortunately, I still don’t think it works RAW, because magic missile does not have a material component at all. In order to use a spellcasting focus, a spell needs to have a material component. All Artificer spells count as having a material component, yes, but magic missile is not an artificer spell for an Alchemist. The artificer initiate feat allows us to use alchemist’s supplies as a spellcasting focus for any spell using intelligence, but that doesn’t mean that a spell that didn’t have a material component suddenly has one. That’s true of artificer spells, but we got magic missile through being a scribes wizard, so it’s still a wizard spell.

 

[Umbran]

Does Alchemical Savant grant an intelligence boost to greenflame blade?

For this to happen, you must use alchemical supplies as a focus. And you must use tools as a focus to cast artificer spells generally.

However, you must use a weapon as a material component of the spell!

An Artificer may use any item that carries one of their infusions as a focus. So, infuse the blade you intend to use, and Voila!

 

[Warpiglet-7]

An Artificer may use any item that carries one of their infusions as a focus. So, infuse the blade you intend to use, and Voila!

I think strictly speaking though you might have to also carry alchemical supplies in a free hand…I don’t want it that way but am concerned raw say that

 

[Kurotowa]

I think strictly speaking though you might have to also carry alchemical supplies in a free hand…I don’t want it that way but am concerned raw say that

You would be correct. Specific beats general, and Alchemical Savant says that it triggers when you use alchemical supplies as the casting focus. An imbued item works as an Artificer casting focus, but it doesn't count as alchemical supplies for other purposes.

Really, it's yet another example of the Alchemist being needlessly narrow and all the worse for it. But that is the RAW. Which is important to establish and understand before you go asking your DM to make alterations, if that's something they might entertain.

 

[Umbran]

I think strictly speaking though you might have to also carry alchemical supplies in a free hand…

No, you specifically do not. I mean, you can - the description of pouring some green Gnomish Fire over the blade has some style - but the "Tools Required" class feature that says you use tools as a spell focus also says your infused items can be used as a spell focus.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

No, you specifically do not. I mean, you can - the description of pouring some green Gnomish Fire over the blade has some style - but the "Tools Required" class feature that says you use tools as a spell focus also says your infused items can be used as a spell focus.

Well I can say that is surely would not hurt balance to do it this way.

I think there might be a difference between RAI and RAW…maybe I am being too uptight about it.

I Was playing around trying to make a melee alchemist when I was working on this…

 

[Umbran]

I think there might be a difference between RAI and RAW…maybe I am being too uptight about it.

No. Really. Read the darned feature. As written (bold mine for emphasis):

"You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of these tools.

After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus."

So - You must have a spellcasting focus (as opposed to other classes, who can cast spells without a focus if they don't have a material component). For this class, thieves' tools or some kind of artisan's tools are foci (instead of the usual arcane focus choices of wand, staff, rod, orb or crystal). Once you reach 2nd level, an item with one of your infusions can also be used as a focus.

If you absolutely, under all circumstances, needed the tools as a focus, there would be NO POINT to having an infused items as a focus! There is nowhere in the rules where having two foci at once is beneficial. How can this be a RAW vs RAI thing? What, then, could possibly be a different intent for that last sentence?

Enabling an infused weapon as a focus is totally part of the intent for the class. Don't sweat it.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

No. Really. Read the darned feature. As written (bold mine for emphasis):

"You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of these tools.

After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus."

So - You must have a spellcasting focus (as opposed to other classes, who can cast spells without a focus if they don't have a material component). For this class, thieves' tools or some kind of artisan's tools are foci (instead of the usual arcane focus choices of wand, staff, rod, orb or crystal). Once you reach 2nd level, an item with one of your infusions can also be used as a focus.

If you absolutely, under all circumstances, needed the tools as a focus, there would be NO POINT to having an infused items as a focus! There is nowhere in the rules where having two foci at once is beneficial. How can this be a RAW vs RAI thing? What, then, could possibly be a different intent for that last sentence?

Enabling an infused weapon as a focus is totally part of the intent for the class. Don't sweat it.

The confusion for me is where it says specific beats general. To get the alchemist feature it says you “must” use the alchemy supplies.

Does this override the more general feature about infused items?

I don’t want it to do so—-but if it does that is a sword in one hand and supplies in the other.

I will reread it all and hope you are right. I want it to be that way