Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
2e Fighter vs Fighter/Thief vs Thief Play Balance
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Musing Mage" data-source="post: 8573009" data-attributes="member: 7025552"><p>Yeah, this is where the trouble starts, I think. That word 'aware.' It boils down to interpretations. Personally I think being on a combatant's rear flank is enough to constitute that lack of awareness. Especially if the front flank is occupied by a burly tank wailing on said figure with a sword.</p><p></p><p>I think the phrase 'will be able to negate' is also often taken as an absolute, where I prefer to interpret it as a <em>possible</em>. This is stuff you can leave to circumstance and dice etc. Let's say the thief is on the target's rear, no surprise, no hiding, he's just in the right place for that sweet, sweet backstab. Initiative is rolled, and the enemy wins initiative. Knowing this guy is on the back, the combatant elects to 'negate the attack form' by repositioning and turning to face the thief, or putting him on his shield flank etc. before the thief attacks.... But if the thief had won initiative he could backstab (at +2, also negating Dex and shield) because the other didn't have time to react and thus negate the form.</p><p></p><p>If the thief HAS surprise, that's a different kettle of fish. Not only can our poor opponent not willingly negate the form as he's most certainly unaware of the thief, but the thief is now +4 (also negating dex and shield) to strike. Unless your DM is being a real jerk and saying that 1 segment of surprise only counts as 'partial surprise' which means the target is 'aware' and therefore negates backstab... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite4" alt=":mad:" title="Mad :mad:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":mad:" /> ... and I wouldn't put it past some DMs. (Thankfully I have never seen that situation yet)</p><p></p><p>For anyone who thinks that just turning their back on someone isn't enough to classify as 'unware,' I refer you to any parent of young children who has turned their back on said child(ren) for 'only a moment.' <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite12" alt="o_O" title="Er... what? o_O" loading="lazy" data-shortname="o_O" /></p><p></p><p>But that's 1st ed. On the topic of 2e, and staying within printed 2e parameters - it doesn't have to be too much different. 2e does require surprise (if I'm remembering correctly) and btb you can't get a backstab by just being on the rear without surprise. But if you use surprise as the main metric for a backstab, it opens things up immensely. A thief who has failed his relevant stealth roll STILL has that chance to achieve surprise and thus backstab, merely a reduced one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nothing wrong with them thinking they've made it even when they failed. They aren't supposed to know they failed, they are just following through on their chosen action. And if you use the surprise metric, it may yet be a success. As DM you can make the surprise check in front of the players, and that's when the success or failure of the attempt becomes relevant. You don't even need to tell the player whether or not their roll went their way, the surprise roll will do the talking for you.</p><p></p><p>As for 'why' they failed, it doesn't matter so much. Only that dice indicated that they did, and the chance to surprise wasn't enhanced. As DM you can make up whatever justification you want within the context. A successfull HS or MS roll may still fail because the surprise roll didn't pan out even with the modifiers, or a failed roll succeeds because the surprise roll went their way. Either way it makes the attempts worthwhile..</p><p></p><p>In some cases you can even let the players make their own MS or HS rolls if the surprise check is going to be immediate anyway, and explain the metric to them so they understand it. A good way for players to see the inner workings of the process and that failure isn't the end of the world.</p><p></p><p>PLAYER: "I want to sneak up behind him with my dagger"</p><p>DM: "Okay, I'll let you roll this one, roll Move silently."</p><p>PLAYER: "26%! My MS is 25%, I guess he hears me?"</p><p>DM: "Not necessarily, I'll roll surprise. d10. He doesn't notice you if it's 1-3. (rolls 3). That means he's surprised."</p><p>PLAYER: "So I can backstab?"</p><p>DM: "Yep, roll to strike."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Musing Mage, post: 8573009, member: 7025552"] Yeah, this is where the trouble starts, I think. That word 'aware.' It boils down to interpretations. Personally I think being on a combatant's rear flank is enough to constitute that lack of awareness. Especially if the front flank is occupied by a burly tank wailing on said figure with a sword. I think the phrase 'will be able to negate' is also often taken as an absolute, where I prefer to interpret it as a [I]possible[/I]. This is stuff you can leave to circumstance and dice etc. Let's say the thief is on the target's rear, no surprise, no hiding, he's just in the right place for that sweet, sweet backstab. Initiative is rolled, and the enemy wins initiative. Knowing this guy is on the back, the combatant elects to 'negate the attack form' by repositioning and turning to face the thief, or putting him on his shield flank etc. before the thief attacks.... But if the thief had won initiative he could backstab (at +2, also negating Dex and shield) because the other didn't have time to react and thus negate the form. If the thief HAS surprise, that's a different kettle of fish. Not only can our poor opponent not willingly negate the form as he's most certainly unaware of the thief, but the thief is now +4 (also negating dex and shield) to strike. Unless your DM is being a real jerk and saying that 1 segment of surprise only counts as 'partial surprise' which means the target is 'aware' and therefore negates backstab... :mad: ... and I wouldn't put it past some DMs. (Thankfully I have never seen that situation yet) For anyone who thinks that just turning their back on someone isn't enough to classify as 'unware,' I refer you to any parent of young children who has turned their back on said child(ren) for 'only a moment.' o_O But that's 1st ed. On the topic of 2e, and staying within printed 2e parameters - it doesn't have to be too much different. 2e does require surprise (if I'm remembering correctly) and btb you can't get a backstab by just being on the rear without surprise. But if you use surprise as the main metric for a backstab, it opens things up immensely. A thief who has failed his relevant stealth roll STILL has that chance to achieve surprise and thus backstab, merely a reduced one. Nothing wrong with them thinking they've made it even when they failed. They aren't supposed to know they failed, they are just following through on their chosen action. And if you use the surprise metric, it may yet be a success. As DM you can make the surprise check in front of the players, and that's when the success or failure of the attempt becomes relevant. You don't even need to tell the player whether or not their roll went their way, the surprise roll will do the talking for you. As for 'why' they failed, it doesn't matter so much. Only that dice indicated that they did, and the chance to surprise wasn't enhanced. As DM you can make up whatever justification you want within the context. A successfull HS or MS roll may still fail because the surprise roll didn't pan out even with the modifiers, or a failed roll succeeds because the surprise roll went their way. Either way it makes the attempts worthwhile.. In some cases you can even let the players make their own MS or HS rolls if the surprise check is going to be immediate anyway, and explain the metric to them so they understand it. A good way for players to see the inner workings of the process and that failure isn't the end of the world. PLAYER: "I want to sneak up behind him with my dagger" DM: "Okay, I'll let you roll this one, roll Move silently." PLAYER: "26%! My MS is 25%, I guess he hears me?" DM: "Not necessarily, I'll roll surprise. d10. He doesn't notice you if it's 1-3. (rolls 3). That means he's surprised." PLAYER: "So I can backstab?" DM: "Yep, roll to strike." [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
2e Fighter vs Fighter/Thief vs Thief Play Balance
Top