Index of Sample NPCs (Please Help)

nerfherder said:

Is it possible to make NPC stats closed content, or do they count as derived works?

Cheers,
Liam

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Straight as they are or adjusted, and thus derived in some manner, NPC stats are about as purely mechanical as you can get, IMO. There's no real legal reason (IANAL) someone cannot take an NPC stat block from an OGL product and re-release it verbatim as or in their own OGL product unless it has some unique qualities to it that are closed (Product Identity) such as the name or an unusual title, etc. (The description, of course, is another matter entirely and is likely protected under copyright beyond the reach of the OGL unless released as OGC by the producer.)

All that said, this isn't really the same thing for WotC as it is for other publishers since WotC doesn't release material as OGC under the OGL very often, nor do they have to do so. WotC's stat blocks are quite likely protected by copyright as is despite being in almost all ways similar to what a publisher would have to release as OGC. Of course, once you go down that road you start to dilute your user base (some people will find such gathering techniques as acts they would rather not be associated with) and run the risk of other action from WotC.

Let me state, too, that I think the NPC Wiki is a cool idea as a gathering place for material created by people who want to share it in that manner but as a place to potentially house large swaths of material stripmined from other sources, I do not care for it.

My dilemma, however, is more of a straightforward business question. Since anyone can add to the NPC Wiki, and since OGC is allowed to be straight out copied, and since NPC stat blocks released under the OGL are OGC, what incentive is there to a publisher to risk having his work stripmined in that manner by leaving it unprotected/unlocked? Remember, locking a PDF or protecting it in some way such as that doesn't chenge that the OGC was released, it merely thwarts the process of copying and pasting the material to another medium easily, which while a publisher is not required to allow certainly makes PDF products more useful to the typical DM and some DMs will shun a product that thwarts that allowance.

So, is there some sort of a operational credo in place at the NPC Wiki that doesn't discourage publishers from releasing large amounts of the very material NPC Wiki users would love to have available to them? There's a Catch-22 working on both sides of the equation whereas NPC Wiki users are definitely a part of the target audience for an NPC product but are the possible deterrent to its production even as such a product is just the type an NPC Wiki user would like to see in production but how can one ensure its production by pledging to forego the potential source to the Wiki? It's a puzzler, no doubt!

smootrk said:

I had actually thought of this, and that is why I worded my post accordingly. I actually agree with your insight. However, I do believe that the 'flavor text' is the part that is proprietary, and that the basic stats are the portions that people want to be able to cut/paste for their own use (and as I see it, fair use and the intended function of producing statblocks - to use). I have never used npcs, monsters, settings, etc. 'as-is' without modifying to suit my own goals.

I will further modify my comment: Please post the stats, minus any specific backgrounds, proprietary personalities, or other potential violations of copyright. I do sympathize with authors of such material - but the basic stats are just plain useful data.

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Naw, we are discussing the same thing, sort of. I won't get into the WotC angle, which is different than my own, except to say that "fair use" as defined in copyright protection is not the same as you are describing it. I know it sounds like it should be but it really isn't. I'll leave it to an attorney to get into the actual specifics of that matter.

Nevertheless, I think my own concerns are covered in my previous post and, as stated, I know it isn't a legal issue when it comes to stripmining the OGC. That's certainly possible, allowed (if the OGL is used correctly), and will be encouraged by some quarters (those who would rather not purchase books to have use of all the OGC). The question, to my mind, comes down to one of what the NPC Wiki will allow as content, and what sources it will allow, as well as what publishers using the OGL should do based on what the NPC Wiki policy is or is going to be? The undefined policy is potentially holding the format of NPC PDF products as hostage, in a sense and not to be too dramatic.

Pat said:

I think the OP's idea was an index for people who already owned the books. Copying them to a wiki is:

1. Legally iffy,
2. A lot more work,
3. Something entirely different,
4. And really belongs in a separate thread.

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I don't doubt it and apologize for the intrusion but I need to respond to the issue in the location where it has been raised. I think the index idea is great. If a moderator wants to peel off the tangental discussion (posts 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, and 12 up to this point), that's all good by me. Probably the OP should change the thread title from "Any Interest in Compiling Sample NPCs?" to "Any Interest in Compiling an Index of Sample NPCs?" to avoid the confusion.

Great idea, Ogrork! The sample NPCs always irritated me, and now I know why: I didn't want to memorize them so I would be able to remember them in order to get some use out of them. (whew)

I like Pat's tweak to the format - it adds some useful functionality to the list.
-blarg

I'm going to go back and add the CRs.

To be clear, I'm not calling for statblocks or breaking copyright. I'm just talking about a listing of very basic info so people know what's out there. And yes, I'm assuming people already own the books.

Libris Mortis

CR 8; Larrak the Death's Chosen, half-orc fighter 5/death's chosen 3, LE, Libris Mortis p. 42
CR 7; Remi Orvenna the Dirgesinger, half-elf bard 5/dirgesinger 2, CN, Libris Mortis p. 44
CR 10; Branna Caersiccus the Master of Radiance, elf cleric 5/master of radiance 5, LG, Libris Mortis p. 46
CR 8; Kaetta Bale the Master of Shrouds, human cleric 6/master of shrouds 2, LE, Libris Mortis p. 47
CR 9; Ugen Allai the Pale Master, human wizard 5/pale master 4, LE, Libris Mortis p. 49
CR 9; Sabim Salri the Sacred Purifier, halfling cleric 6/sacred purifier 3, LG, Libris Mortis p. 50
CR 11; Thredra Aranax the True Necromancer, human necromancer 3/cleric 3/true necromancer 5, NE, Libris Mortis p. 53
CR 10; Lalruun, spectre ephemeral examplar 3, LE, Libris Mortis p. 53
CR 11; The Balcress Horror, mohrg lurking terror 3, CE, Libris Mortis p. 54
CR 13; Laudric Lord of the Bloodhall, vampire elf cleric 8/master vampire 3, LE, Libris Mortis p. 56
CR 8; Argotem Guardian of the Amber Fire, mummy tomb warden 3, LE, Libris Mortis p. 58

This one was a pain in the butt as most of the names include the prestige class title, making the lines even longer. :\

Mark CMG said:

My dilemma, however, is more of a straightforward business question. Since anyone can add to the NPC Wiki, and since OGC is allowed to be straight out copied, and since NPC stat blocks released under the OGL are OGC, what incentive is there to a publisher to risk having his work stripmined in that manner by leaving it unprotected/unlocked? Remember, locking a PDF or protecting it in some way such as that doesn't chenge that the OGC was released, it merely thwarts the process of copying and pasting the material to another medium easily, which while a publisher is not required to allow certainly makes PDF products more useful to the typical DM and some DMs will shun a product that thwarts that allowance.

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Mark, as near as I can tell, a publisher only has three option concerning the risk of OGC "strip mining", as you referred to it. One is to use the infamous crippled OGC declaration, a technique many gamers deplore. I hope you don't go that route, but it has been used effectively in the past. Two, as you mentioned, make it as difficult as possible to pull material out of the pdf. But as you also noted, this harms the very customers you want to use your product. Three, tie in considerable non-OGC material, which for the product you mention, should be happening anyway.

When I go looking for an NPC to use, the first thing I look for is the characterization. I want a hook that grabs me and fits the situation in which I'm planning to use the NPC. If the character also has about the right class and level that I need, that's a bonus - I can just tweak the stats block a bit and move on. But I almost never use an NPC as is, and I personally don't go looking for a set of stats to build an NPC around. That's just backwards, IMO. I can always do stats - it's a unique, interesting character that's hard (for me, at least).

So if you focus on the non-OGC "fluff" - appearance, style, quirks, mannerisms, outlook - in short, the character, it won't matter if your OGC gets strip mined, by NPC Wiki or some other party. They won't be able to bring a fraction of the same value to the gamer that your product can. It's not that the stats are unimportant, just that they're not the most important piece of a character.

I really like using templates and you would think that the various template books would be primary candidates for strip mining, since so much of a template is mechanics. The fact that this hasn't happened is due, in part (IMO), to the fact that the mechanics are just a means to an end, not the end itself. It's that reaction when reading about a particular template that makes me say, "Wow, I have got to use this in my next game!" That's what causes buyers to recommend a product to others, not the stat blocks.

I can understand if you're reaction is, "Maybe so, but I still don't want my hard work strip mined by someone with a computer and a little time." I can sympathize, but with the OGL as written, it's very hard, if not impossible, to protect mechanics. Ryan Dancy has said repeatedly this was intended to help game designers, but the OGL doesn't make that distinction, so we're left with the way things are. All you can do is keep putting out excellent products (I have a couple) and do the best you can.

BTW - when does the NPC collection come out? I'll be happy to take a look and see if it meets my needs.

Andre said:

BTW - when does the NPC collection come out? I'll be happy to take a look and see if it meets my needs.

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Well, how about instead of rambling on about open content and other such babble, you contribute some of your own time and help everyone else out by posting some of the sample NPCs from the books you own.

Andre said:

BTW - when does the NPC collection come out? I'll be happy to take a look and see if it meets my needs.

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Not sure. I obviously have things I need to consider further. Thank you, though, for both your advice and patronage. It's all greatly appreciated.


Here's something to hopefully dull the sharpness of my tangent . . .

DMG II

CR 8; Riot (Mob of Humans), DMG II p. 61
CR 8; Stampede (Mob of Horses), DMG II p. 61
CR 5; Drow Raider, Drow Fighter 4, DMG II p. 71
CR 14; Antipaladin, Human Paladin 7/Blackguard 7, DMG II p. 161
CR --; Fiendish Heavy Warhorse Servant, Large Magical Beast, DMG II p. 161
CR 11; Arcane Mercenary, Human Fighter 5/Sorcerer 6, DMG II p. 162
CR --; Toad Familiar, DMG II p. 162
CR 12; Bounty Hunter, Human Ranger 3/Rogue 4/ Assassin 5, DMG II p. 163
CR 6; Cultist, Ceric 3/Rogue 3, DMG II p. 164
CR 10; Giant Slayer, Barbarian 5/Ranger 5, DMG II p. 165
CR --; Heavy Warhorse Animal Companion, DMG II p. 165
CR 20; High Priest, Cleric 17, Heirophant 3, DMG II p. 166
CR 10; Martial Artist (Fighter), Human Monk 5/Fighter 5, DMG II p. 167
CR 10; Martial Artist (Rogue), Human Rogue 5/Monk 5, DMG II p. 167
CR 18; Master Wizard, Human Wizard 13/Archmage 5, DMG II p. 168
CR --; Quasit Improved Familiar, DMG II p. 168
CR 18; Master Wizard (Illusionist), Human Wizard 13/Archmage 5, DMG II p. 169
CR 14; Mastermind, Human Rogue 7/Bard 7, DMG II p. 170
CR 13; Tribal Shaman, Human Barbarian 6/Druid 7, DMG II p. 171
CR --; Deinonychus Animal Companion, DMG II p. 171
CR 17; Undead Master, Human Cleric 3/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 19, DMG II p. 172

Hrm. The NPC wiki has indexes for named demons, why not add an index for published NPCs? Might make it easier to organize that way?

I put up something rudimentry at http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Published_NPC_Project

Not much formatting or whatnot, but it's a wiki, and it's a start...