Microlite20 : the smallest thing in gaming

kensanata · Jan 27, 2007

Interesting observations!

Thanks for sharing.

Sabathius42 said:
The cost to cast spell in HP was severely limiting the Wizard and Cleric at 1st level.

I think the reason I'm not running into this is that the one mage with STR 5 is using a free-form magic system and rarely casts spell in the first place. Another important consideration is that your favorite spell costs 1hp less. So if your Mage's favorite 1st-level spell is MM, then that will only cost 2hp instead of 3. And better yet, your favorite 0-level spell will cost nothing at all!

Assuming a weak mage: STR 5 + 1d6 (2) = 7hp. That means he can cast MM three times a day, unlimited favorite 0-level spells, and still have 1hp left to run.

Compare this with a D&D mage who has 4hp and can cast exactly 3 0-level spells and a single 1st-level spell, probably adding another bonus 1st-level spell due to high INT.

I think the M20 mage should not look too shabby. Can you provide some more information?

Sabathius42 said:
Over 1/2 of the on-the-fly combinations of skill/stat to cover a situation seemed to come up physical/dex. Not a gripe, just an observation.

This must be your game style.

When I posted my observations, I noted that nearly all my skill checks were Subterfuge+DEX and Subterfuge+MIND for Hide, Spot, Listen, Disarm and the like. Somebody else posted that most of their checks involved social interactions. That convinced me.

Sabathius42 said:
We used minis, but not a grid. When someone was close to melee but not in melee I let them make a DC10 PHY: DEX roll to "charge". It didn't make sense they couldn't step up AND attack when they were only 5 feet away from the action.

We use little wooden tokens on the table, just to know who is hitting whom. I usually just rule that moving from one end of the battle to the other takes a round, all other movement from foe to foe comes for free.

Sabathius42 said:
With as much trimmed fat as there is, I cannot believe that the kooky twin-weapon-fighting still made it in. I instead use the following rule. Off Hand: Having a weapon in your off hand give you +2 on attacks.

Interesting alternative. Nobody in my group is using two weapons, so I can't say anything about it.

3d6 · Jan 27, 2007

Orisons and cantrips are pretty worthless, though. Microlite20 characters also have the advantage of having full access to their entire spell list with spontaneous casting. Also, it says that magi can cast "any arcane spell" and clerics "any divine spell"; thus, magi can use cure light wounds and hideous laughter at 1st level, among other things, and clerics have all domain spells, ranger spells, and paladin spells.

I do think the casting system breaks down quite a bit at higher levels, however, due to the much-lower-than-D&D hit points.

In the game I'm running, spells generate "fatigue points" (similar to non-lethal damage, except only healed by 8 hours of rest) equal to twice the spells level, minus 1. If your fatigue points exceed your maximum (not current) hit points, you fall unconscious for 8 hours (after which point all your fatigue points have been removed). So far, the mage and cleric characters have not seemed overpowered compared to the fighter and rogue characters. (Actually, the fighter seems to be the strongest class at low levels.)

JiffyPopTart · Jan 27, 2007

kensanata said:
Assuming a weak mage: STR 5 + 1d6 (2) = 7hp.

Am I reading something wrong? Shouldn't a 1st level character with STR 5 have 1d6-2 HP? I gave out max at 1st level so this would be 4.

About making a 0 level spell "favored" and getting it free: Hadn't thought of that angle, could definately be useful.

About 0 level spells being useless: No way! A mage-handed tureen of hot soup was a critical blow in the combat I was running.

About free moves in combat: We stuck close to the "one thing a round, move or shoot" rule.

About access to EVERY spell: That would definately change perception of power level. We were only using the downloadable short list of spells, not the PHB. If I do switch to the PHB I would still stick to the stock wizard/cleric lists.

DS

WSmith · Jan 27, 2007

I too only use the spell lists from the M20 pocketbooks. Makes life much simplier.

BTW, my TWF rule I used for a while is this:

One attck roll, two damage rolls, one for each weapon. The higher of the two weapons is the one that strikes true and inflicts damage. A tie means both strike.

This goes along with my beilef in the abstract combat reasoning. One attack roll consists of many strikes, thrusts, feints, parries, etc.

WSmith · Jan 27, 2007

Sabathius42 said:
Am I reading something wrong? Shouldn't a 1st level character with STR 5 have 1d6-2 HP? I gave out max at 1st level so this would be 4.

It is the actual ability score number, not the modifer. The above PC should have 1d6 + 5 HP.

Larcen · Jan 27, 2007

Sabathius42 said:
6. With as much trimmed fat as there is, I cannot believe that the kooky twin-weapon-fighting still made it in. I instead use the following rule.
Off Hand: Having a weapon in your off hand give you +2 on attacks.
DS

Since I am trying to get away from multiple attacks as much as possible, this is rather interesting. But which of the two weapons rolls for damage if you score a hit?

kensanata said:
And better yet, your favorite 0-level spell will cost nothing at all!

The rules say that your signature spell has to be 1st level and up. So no freebies it seems.

kensanata said:
I usually just rule that moving from one end of the battle to the other takes a round, all other movement from foe to foe comes for free.

Say, this is rather cool and elegant. It solves a long standing problem I have had with D&D style combat. All the combatants always seem to be rooted to the spot once the have closed. No one ever wants to move in combat for fear of giving up a precious attack or provoking a AoO. Sure the free 5' step was meant to prevent that, but I always wonder how to capture true cinematic combat like in the movies where the combatants use the entire room/area/arena they are in to maneuver.

With this simple method you came up its like the entire room is now "free" to use. Go ahead and jump on a table, as long as its close, its free! (Well, movement-wise) Go ahead step in to help a friend, its free! Go ahead and back up closer to the exit while still fending off the guards, it's free! Go ahead, you little kobold you, run under the table, its free! (That one was for Greywulf.)

I think if both sides can do it, it should still be balanced. Of course the DM might still rule a common sense AoO here and there (like running clear past an otherwise unengaged enemy) but they should be rare to keep the opponents and the fun moving along. Works even better for miniatureless combat I bet. I like it.

What do other people think? Is it possible to have cool cinametic combat where you throw away movement rates and distances, for the most part, and just concentrate on where people want to be and the actual attacks only? Or does it create some weird unbalancing situations?

kensanata · Jan 27, 2007

Thoughts on Combat

Larcen said:
The rules say that your signature spell has to be 1st level and up. So no freebies it seems.

Argh! I introduced this by accident while rewriting the rules. CoreRulesRevised says "Spellcasters can pick a ‘signature’ spell on every Spell Level. These spells are easier to cast due to familiarity, costing 1 less HP to use." CoreRules says: "Select one ‘signature’ spell per spell level from 1st upward that they prefer to use over any other. These spells are easier to cast due to familiarity, costing 1 less HP to use." I'll fix this.

Larcen said:
Say, this is rather cool and elegant. It solves a long standing problem I have had with D&D style combat. All the combatants always seem to be rooted to the spot once the have closed.

The two areas that remain contentious: Flanking/sneak attacks and retreat/fleeing.

As for flanking, I just rule that if they join a melee where all enemies are already busy, they're automatically flanking, ie. numerical superiority = sneak attacks possible if Sub+DEX of the thief > Sub+MIND of the enemy (and I ignore flanking for M20). I think I might have to fix this, however. I'm thinking of getting rid of that extra skill check, ruling that a thief adds his Sub to damage rolls whenever they hit and their party has numerical superiority.

I use the wooden counters to determine local numerical superiority: If there are many enemies, I'll break them up into several groups. Example: The evil Izanami worshiping priest is protected by his two acolytes (three) and managed to read a scroll of Summon Monster V calling forth a bearded devil. This devil appears in the back of the party, so that the party has to split up. If at least one other party member helps the thief attack the bearded devil, this will grant them numerical superiority in this particular melee and the thief will be able to add his Sub to damage rolls. (As I said, I'm planning to no longer require successful sneak skill rolls for this.)

Regarding withdrawing, retreating, and fleeing: In this campaign all enemies have been human until now, so I'll basically start by saying that enemies are backing away slowly, offering to surrender as they continue to fight. I then start moving the wooden counters away from melee, and players either turn to other foes (usually no extra round required, just attack any nearby foe) or follow the retreating enemies.

If followed, enemies may start their real withdrawal, ie. not attacking and retreating even faster (still no attack of opportunity or attack bonus for the party members). If the party members pursue their foes, we change from combat into a chase and will resolve it after everybody else has finished combat.

What usually happens is that the bosses manage to flee while minions try to surrender as they are moving backwards ("Please, spare us!"). My players will also often bandage fallen foes bringing them back to 1hp (instead of going through the whole healing thing), thus obviating the need for doing non-lethal damage and all that.

kensanata · Jan 27, 2007

Magic

Sabathius42 said:
In addition they are not dead when they get tapped out.

Hehe. In my game, they just pass out for 8h if lethal damage + magical drain reduces their hitpoints to 0 or less. They only start dying if the lethal damage alone reduces their hitpoints to 0 or less.