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D&D 5E Shadowdark casting in standard 5E

Quickleaf

Legend
What's the status on the system you're talking about? I was came across this thread thinking about how/if one could import the Shadowdark/DCC casting system into 5e.
I am playtesting a homebrewed system for Sorcerers that integrates Roll-to-Cast and Miscast (inspired by Kelsey's Shadowdark, DCC, and a bit of my own ideas) as one roll. There's some other bits and bobs, but this is the core of the system.

1st: Spellcasting: Roll-to-cast
Whenever you cast a spell using spell slots, roll d20 + your proficiency bonus. The baseline DC to cast the spell is 10 + its level. If you fail, compare your roll to the Miscast Table. Unless specifically stated on the miscast result (or Overchanneling), your spell still takes effect.
When you gain Font of Magic at 2nd level, you can expend Sorcery Points after rolling to gain a bonus equal to the number of points spent.

Sorcerer Miscast Table Result
3-4Wrong words! You accidentally cast another spell you know at random instead.
5Magical surge! Take 1d6 force damage per level of the spell. If you were Overchanneling, this also creates an explosion dealing 1d6 force damage per level of the spell to creatures within 20 feet of you.
6Refraction! You target yourself with the spell. However, you regain the action you used to cast the spell, and can immediately cast a spell without needing to roll to cast it. Alternately, if you were the original target, you are instead befuddled for 1 minute – you cannot concentrate or upcast spells during this time.
7Your hand slipped! You target a random ally with the spell (if enemy was initial target), or a random enemy (if ally was initial target), or a random area (if an area was targeted). However, you regain the action you used to cast the spell, and can immediately cast another spell without needing to roll to cast it.
8Mind wound! You can’t cast this spell again for a week, and any attempt to Overchannel during this time deals psychic damage equal to the spell’s level to you.
9Reversal! The spell’s effect is reversed from its normal one. For example, dispel magic might amplify the effect it was cast against. However, you regain the action you used to cast the spell, and can immediately cast another spell without needing to roll to cast it.
10Spell worm! You lose the ability to cast a random spell on each of your turns until you pass a Constitution save (against your spell save DC). You regain the ability to cast those spells after a long rest.
11Poof! You suffer a minor effect related to the spell, lasting as long as the spell’s duration or 1d10 minutes for spells that are instantaneous. For example a fireball might extinguish all light in the area or cause you to glow.
12Delayed effect! The spell activates after 1d12 hours. If you were the intended target, the spell takes effect normally. If the caster was not the intended target, the spell goes off in the general direction of the intended target, up to the spell’s maximum range, if the target has moved away. However, you regain the action you used to cast the spell, and can immediately cast another spell without needing to roll to cast it.
13Component calamity! Your fingers twitch the gestures and your lips mutter the incantations of the spell for 1 minute. For any leveled spell you cast in that time, you must make a Wisdom save (against your spell save DC) or you cast this spell instead. Once this occurs, you no longer need to make Wisdom saves.
14Metamagic backlash! You may apply one form of Metamagic (even one you don’t know) to the spell for free. However, you suffer a major effect related to the spell, lasting for 1 hour. For example, comprehend languages might cause you to speak backwards or modify memory might inflict amnesia on you.
15Unstable conduit! You radiate magic for 1 minute, and any spell you cast in that time is randomly upcast 1d4 levels (without increasing the DC to cast). However, you have disadvantage on your rolls to cast in that time.

So why is the table weirdly numbered? First question my players asked. That requires a bit of easy maths to explain.

At 1st level, the DC to cast a 1st level spell is 11, so on a roll-to-cast 1d20+2 you fail if your die value comes up 3-8. Thus, when casting a 1st level spell you will never get a mishap of 9-15 (Reversal, Spell Worm, Poof, Delayed Effect, Component Calamity, Metamagic Backlash, or Unstable Conduit), and this is mostly intentional.

As you cast higher level spells, the range of failure shifts up the chart, so stop getting the Wrong Words but you will start dealing with Reversals and Spell Worms and so on.

You'll notice my miscast chart goes to 15, but a 17th level sorcerer (with +6 prof) rolling to cast a 9th level spell would roll 1d20+6 vs DC 19, so their die miscast range is 7 (the lowest they can roll) to 12 (because 12+6 equals 18, which is failure). So why does the chart go to 15?

That's because of the bits and bobs I mentioned - Overchannel and Spell Emulation being new features I give the sorcerer at 1st and 5th levels, respectively.

Sorcerer Level & Prof.Spell LevelDC to castRoll-to-Cast Result RangeRoll-to-Cast Failure Range
1st +21113-223-8
3rd +22123-223-9
5th +33134-234-9
7th +34144-234-10
9th +45155-245-10
11th +46165-245-11
13th +57176-256-11
15th +58186-256-12
17th +69197-267-12

What are the other bits and bobs I give the sorcerer?

1st: Innate Magic
You are an innately magical being, which has the following effects:
  • You do not rely on material components for your spells, acting as your own spell focus. However, if a spell has a component with a gold piece value, you still need to use the component in that case.
  • You radiate magic when a creature casts detect magic upon you; it appears to be a kind of magic reflected by your Sorcerous Bloodline.
  • Add detect magic to your Spells Known, without counting against that limit.

1st: Overchannel
You may attempt to cast sorcerer spells beyond your normal ability. You must expend a total number of spell slots equal to the level of the spell you're attempting, using your highest spell slots first. If you fail your roll to cast, the Overchanneled spell fails to take effect.

For each level above the maximum spell level you can cast, you suffer a -1 penalty on your roll to cast and you suffer a level of exhaustion after casting the spell (Note: I use homebrew exhaustion more like the UA -1 to -10 version). If casting the spell would take you below your maximum levels of exhaustion, you cannot attempt the spell – it is beyond your power. You may expend Sorcery Points to negate this exhaustion.

For example, an 8th level sorcerer tries to cast reverse gravity, a 7th level spell, when they can only cast 4th level spells. They suffer a -3 penalty on their DC 17 roll to cast, giving them a net roll of d20 + 3 -3 (i.e. a straight d20 roll), which is a 20% chance of success. After the roll, they can spend Sorcery Points as described under Roll-to-Cast to gain a bonus. Regardless of the outcome they suffer 3 levels of exhaustion, unless they expend 3 Sorcery Points.

5th: Spell Emulation
Starting at 5th level, when you see a spell cast, as a reaction you may note the manner of its casting, and for the next 10 minutes treat the spell as if it is on your Sorcerer Spell List. You may only emulate one spell at a time. When you roll to cast this spell, if it is not on your sorcerer spell list, you suffer a -5 penalty on your roll.
 
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I'd give it to every class, but I mean that what used to separate wizards and sorcerers in my mind was sorcs could cast more but wizards knew more. So, not sure how that'd all work into "you know six spells, you can cast til you fail" etc like SD does it.
I'd completely rework the two classes tbh, even if I wasn't giving this to every class; Metamagic and Spellbook are not designed in such a way so as to satisfy my desires to fully seperate the two. Sorcerer would become more Dark Fantasy & Anime, Wizard would become more Sage and Arcane Focus mechanics.
 

At the outset we have something similar with HD expenditure but our cost structure is very different. It is based on required level, so for instance an Action Surge of 1st, 5th and 11th would cost differently.
I've also recently started using HD expenditure for opponents/monsters too. PCs at our table are 15th so I had to increase the difficulty to keep things challenging and it does help with monsters having 20+HD. ;)

Casters can spend HD to:
  • regain spell slots - 1 HD per slot level
That's a cheap Haste :ROFLMAO:
martials can send HD to:
  • 1 HD to regain a short rest ability
So, an 11th level a fighter spends 1 HD for Action Surge to regain 3 attacks? How is that in any way comparable to spend 1 HD for d6 damage? or to increase one's speed by d10 feet?
  • 1 HD to reroll a missed saving throw
Indomitable (a long rest power) at level 9, now acquired cheaply for 1HD at any level which in your system is the cost for a short rest power?
  • 2 HD to regain a long rest ability
See above Indomitable.
You may want to add an incremental cost increase at higher levels for the orc's Relentless Endurance.
I'm sure there may be other broken abilities with the newer books (Tasha's etc)
  • HD to increase melee damage by 1d6
Seems woefully low.
Anyone can spend HD to:
  • spend HD to recover from exhaustion (1 per level)
Do you dish out exhaustion more often in your games? Because it is a big score if you do not.
Exploration challenges and dropping to 0 incurs exhaustion in our games.

EDIT: This system requires you to change-up the recovery period. I feel systems like these do not play well with 5e's std recovery rules. The recovery rules are already borked as they are, systems like these aggravate it 10-fold.

We've got Short Rests (as per PHB), Travel Rests (benefits of a Short Rest + recover 1/2 HD round down) and Long Rests (as per PHB - 24 hours period within safe haven + comfort)
 
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I am playtesting a homebrewed system for Sorcerers that integrates Roll-to-Cast and Miscast (inspired by Kelsey's Shadowdark, DCC, and a bit of my own ideas) as one roll. There's some other bits and bobs, but this is the core of the system.

1st: Spellcasting: Roll-to-cast
Whenever you cast a spell using spell slots, roll d20 + your proficiency bonus. The baseline DC to cast the spell is 10 + its level. If you fail, compare your roll to the Miscast Table. Unless specifically stated on the miscast result (or Overchanneling), your spell still takes effect.
When you gain Font of Magic at 2nd level, you can expend Sorcery Points after rolling to gain a bonus equal to the number of points spent.

Sorcerer Miscast Table Result
3-4Wrong words! You accidentally cast another spell you know at random instead.
5Magical surge! Take 1d6 force damage per level of the spell. If you were Overchanneling, this also creates an explosion dealing 1d6 force damage per level of the spell to creatures within 20 feet of you.
6Refraction! You target yourself with the spell. However, you regain the action you used to cast the spell, and can immediately cast a spell without needing to roll to cast it. Alternately, if you were the original target, you are instead befuddled for 1 minute – you cannot concentrate or upcast spells during this time.
7Your hand slipped! You target a random ally with the spell (if enemy was initial target), or a random enemy (if ally was initial target), or a random area (if an area was targeted). However, you regain the action you used to cast the spell, and can immediately cast another spell without needing to roll to cast it.
8Mind wound! You can’t cast this spell again for a week, and any attempt to Overchannel during this time deals psychic damage equal to the spell’s level to you.
9Reversal! The spell’s effect is reversed from its normal one. For example, dispel magic might amplify the effect it was cast against. However, you regain the action you used to cast the spell, and can immediately cast another spell without needing to roll to cast it.
10Spell worm! You lose the ability to cast a random spell on each of your turns until you pass a Constitution save (against your spell save DC). You regain the ability to cast those spells after a long rest.
11Poof! You suffer a minor effect related to the spell, lasting as long as the spell’s duration or 1d10 minutes for spells that are instantaneous. For example a fireball might extinguish all light in the area or cause you to glow.
12Delayed effect! The spell activates after 1d12 hours. If you were the intended target, the spell takes effect normally. If the caster was not the intended target, the spell goes off in the general direction of the intended target, up to the spell’s maximum range, if the target has moved away. However, you regain the action you used to cast the spell, and can immediately cast another spell without needing to roll to cast it.
13Component calamity! Your fingers twitch the gestures and your lips mutter the incantations of the spell for 1 minute. For any leveled spell you cast in that time, you must make a Wisdom save (against your spell save DC) or you cast this spell instead. Once this occurs, you no longer need to make Wisdom saves.
14Metamagic backlash! You may apply one form of Metamagic (even one you don’t know) to the spell for free. However, you suffer a major effect related to the spell, lasting for 1 hour. For example, comprehend languages might cause you to speak backwards or modify memory might inflict amnesia on you.
15Unstable conduit! You radiate magic for 1 minute, and any spell you cast in that time is randomly upcast 1d4 levels (without increasing the DC to cast). However, you have disadvantage on your rolls to cast in that time.

So why is the table weirdly numbered? First question my players asked. That requires a bit of easy maths to explain.

At 1st level, the DC to cast a 1st level spell is 11, so on a roll-to-cast 1d20+2 you fail if your die value comes up 3-8. Thus, when casting a 1st level spell you will never get a mishap of 9-15 (Reversal, Spell Worm, Poof, Delayed Effect, Component Calamity, Metamagic Backlash, or Unstable Conduit), and this is mostly intentional.

As you cast higher level spells, the range of failure shifts up the chart, so stop getting the Wrong Words but you will start dealing with Reversals and Spell Worms and so on.

You'll notice my miscast chart goes to 15, but a 17th level sorcerer (with +6 prof) rolling to cast a 9th level spell would roll 1d20+6 vs DC 19, so their die miscast range is 7 (the lowest they can roll) to 12 (because 12+6 equals 18, which is failure). So why does the chart go to 15?

That's because of the bits and bobs I mentioned - Overchannel and Spell Emulation being new features I give the sorcerer at 1st and 5th levels, respectively.

Sorcerer Level & Prof.Spell LevelDC to castRoll-to-Cast Result RangeRoll-to-Cast Failure Range
1st +21113-223-8
3rd +22123-223-9
5th +33134-234-9
7th +34144-234-10
9th +45155-245-10
11th +46165-245-11
13th +57176-256-11
15th +58186-256-12
17th +69197-267-12

What are the other bits and bobs I give the sorcerer?

1st: Innate Magic
You are an innately magical being, which has the following effects:
  • You do not rely on material components for your spells, acting as your own spell focus. However, if a spell has a component with a gold piece value, you still need to use the component in that case.
  • You radiate magic when a creature casts detect magic upon you; it appears to be a kind of magic reflected by your Sorcerous Bloodline.
  • Add detect magic to your Spells Known, without counting against that limit.

1st: Overchannel
You may attempt to cast sorcerer spells beyond your normal ability. You must expend a total number of spell slots equal to the level of the spell you're attempting, using your highest spell slots first. If you fail your roll to cast, the Overchanneled spell fails to take effect.

For each level above the maximum spell level you can cast, you suffer a -1 penalty on your roll to cast and you suffer a level of exhaustion after casting the spell (Note: I use homebrew exhaustion more like the UA -1 to -10 version). If casting the spell would take you below your maximum levels of exhaustion, you cannot attempt the spell – it is beyond your power. You may expend Sorcery Points to negate this exhaustion.

For example, an 8th level sorcerer tries to cast reverse gravity, a 7th level spell, when they can only cast 4th level spells. They suffer a -3 penalty on their DC 17 roll to cast, giving them a net roll of d20 + 3 -3 (i.e. a straight d20 roll), which is a 20% chance of success. After the roll, they can spend Sorcery Points as described under Roll-to-Cast to gain a bonus. Regardless of the outcome they suffer 3 levels of exhaustion, unless they expend 3 Sorcery Points.

5th: Spell Emulation
Starting at 5th level, when you see a spell cast, as a reaction you may note the manner of its casting, and for the next 10 minutes treat the spell as if it is on your Sorcerer Spell List. You may only emulate one spell at a time. When you roll to cast this spell, if it is not on your sorcerer spell list, you suffer a -5 penalty on your roll.
Have you playtested it yet? What have experiences been like if so? I'm interested in apeing this.
 

GrimCo

Adventurer
In Shadowdark, casters know a handful of spells that they can cast. Rather than having to prepare spells and/or expend spell slots, Shadowdark casters make a magic roll (like a skill check) each time they cast a spell. If they fail the roll, they no longer have access to that specific spell until they manage a (long) rest.

Is this a viable method in standard 5E, do you think? Is it desirable? Is it something you could extend to other class abilities by non casters? What would it mean for cantrips and other non-resource at-will abilities?
That's default casting system in our current 5e campaign. And i know for a fact that my DM didn't even heard of Shadowdark, much less read it. XD Casting DC is 10+spell level and for every re casting of same spell DC rises by 1, you roll stat mod + proficiency mod.


House rule is, cantrips don't scale automatically. You need to sacrifice spell known to scale cantrip. So you need to weight out what is more usefull, more powerful cantrip or leveled spell. And you sacrifice spells by tier. So for tier 1, one lv1 spell known, for tier 2, one lv3 spell known and so on.

What it does, it make player less reliant on - magic will fix it and more careful when to cast and when not to. It's more - let's try it with magic, but make sure we have non magical contingency in case it fails.
 

In Shadowdark, casters know a handful of spells that they can cast. Rather than having to prepare spells and/or expend spell slots, Shadowdark casters make a magic roll (like a skill check) each time they cast a spell. If they fail the roll, they no longer have access to that specific spell until they manage a (long) rest.

Is this a viable method in standard 5E, do you think? Is it desirable? Is it something you could extend to other class abilities by non casters? What would it mean for cantrips and other non-resource at-will abilities?
I feel the need to point out that Shadowdark didn't originate this system. Dungeon World has been using it since 2012, which is presumably where Shadowdark got it from, though there may be even older sources. I've considered using it for 5E more or less since 5E came out, though have never actually done so. I think it would be viable in 5E, but you'd need to nerf the number of spells known and the rate at which casters get new spell levels, and Wizards just couldn't work like this, because they can know an indefinite number of spells. A problem 5E has is with casters being too flexible and powerful, not insufficiently so, and without other nerfs this would only exacerbate that issue.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
Have you playtested it yet? What have experiences been like if so? I'm interested in apeing this.
Only just started and it’s a PbP game here (RotFM) with two players using my sorcerer variant. The immediate feedback they gave me was for a previous version where many of the Miscasts ended up being total failure of the spell - they didn’t care for that. So I modified to current version where Miscasts create complications but don’t stop the spellcasting entirely (the ones that did that have changed language underlined).

I think miscast as catastrophe can work in a DCC or other lighter weight system which embraces “comedy of errors”, high PC death, and has shorter combat turns. But play style/environment of 5e seems to discourage catastrophic miscasts.

So far we’re still acclimating to the changed house rule. When I have time for my next live game, whether that’s tabletop or virtual, I’ll see if folks can test it some more.
 

dave2008

Legend
At the outset we have something similar with HD expenditure but our cost structure is very different. It is based on required level, so for instance an Action Surge of 1st, 5th and 11th would cost differently.
I've also recently started using HD expenditure for opponents/monsters too. PCs at our table are 15th so I had to increase the difficulty to keep things challenging and it does help with monsters having 20+HD. ;)
To be clear, we fly by the set of our pants and make rules up as we go. So we don't think things through for the whole game. We just do what works for specific group at that specific time. After a campaign ends we might go back and adjust things if we feel it is needed.
That's a cheap Haste :ROFLMAO:
I'm sorry, I don't get your meaning.
So, an 11th level a fighter spends 1 HD for Action Surge to regain 3 attacks? How is that in any way comparable to spend 1 HD for d6 damage? or to increase one's speed by d10 feet?
It is not, see my top post. Also, I made an error we charge 2 HD for action surge. Not that it is much more balanced that way! Also, something I didn't explain is the single attack damage can be more important in our game because we have armor DR. So having more attacks is less impactful than a stronger single attack in some cases.
Indomitable (a long rest power) at level 9, now acquired cheaply for 1HD at any level which in your system is the cost for a short rest power?
Cheap at higher levels, not so cheap at lower levels. Also, did I make a mistake in what I posted - this for fighters only (in 1e/2e fighters had the best saves - this is trying to mimic that somewhat).
See above Indomitable.
You may want to add an incremental cost increase at higher levels for the orc's Relentless Endurance.
I'm sure there may be other broken abilities with the newer books (Tasha's etc)
Yes, that is a good idea. If we truly "designed" a system I am sure we would do that. This was just a leftover from our 4e days when heroic surges (aka healing surges) scaled with your character. So it made more sense in that system. We have just never spent the time to make it scale properly.
Seems woefully low.
Probably could use an adjustment.
Do you dish out exhaustion more often in your games? Because it is a big score if you do not.
Exploration challenges and dropping to 0 incurs exhaustion in our games.
Yes, but not a whole lot more. It is also less of a boon when you consider everything that is looking at HD as a resource. I should also mention any healing you get requires you spend a HD, even if it is magical (again similar to 4e)
EDIT: This system requires you to change-up the recovery period. I feel systems like these do not play well with 5e's std recovery rules. The recovery rules are already borked as they are, systems like these aggravate it 10-fold.
Yes, we don't use the standard rules for rest and recovery or even hit points really.
We've got Short Rests (as per PHB), Travel Rests (benefits of a Short Rest + recover 1/2 HD round down) and Long Rests (as per PHB - 24 hours period within safe haven + comfort)
We have minor (5-10 min), short (1 hr), long (6-8 hrs), and extended rests (1 week).
 

Distracted DM

Distracted DM
Supporter
I think it would be viable in 5E, but you'd need to nerf the number of spells known and the rate at which casters get new spell levels, and Wizards just couldn't work like this, because they can know an indefinite number of spells. A problem 5E has is with casters being too flexible and powerful, not insufficiently so, and without other nerfs this would only exacerbate that issue.
Wizards could just have the ability to prepare a smaller number of spells/day out of their books, but having access to whatever they record- whereas sorcerers would have a slightly larger number of spells that they know.

One could even adopt a spell table like 13A, where as you gain access to higher level spells you lose the lower ones- and the caster could know # spells/level. Makes even more sense with 5e's ability to upcast spells.

I'm starting to think you could even use existing tables from 5e or another edition as a guideline for how many spells you know of each level.

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