D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

ECMO3 said:

A regular fighter in D&D can do impossible things - at 10th level a fighter can fight a tiger naked with his bare hands and no martial arts training and win every single time. If he is a medium size race he can grapple said tiger and prevent him from moving anywhere well over half of the time with no Athletics training, with Athletics training that fighter could do that half the time even with an 8 strength. The current 5E D&D fighter is Batman!

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In what interpretation does the Fighter not have martial arts training? They literally are trained with every weapon in the world, including their fists.

ECMO3 said:

He can get bit by a king cobra and require no medical attention at all and usually not even be affected by the poison.

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This is true of most characters. Period. Even the measly 10 con wizard ignores venomous snake bite 50% of the time. With half damage that means half of all wizards survive a bite from a cobra with no medical attention. Even commoners do this.

In DnD, this isn't THAT impressive.

ECMO3 said:

If you took the a world champion MMA fighter who is among the best martial artists in the world IRL and told him to beat a tiger to death with his bare hands he would end up dead. If you told him to grapple a tiger and prevent it from moving he would fail and again likely end up dead. If he got bit by a Cobra and did not get attention he would die the majority of the time

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And the last time a heckler at a comedy show got roasted, their skin peeled from their face and they fell over dead... oh wait. Comedians can't do that.

So why are we basing IRL stuff on this?

You know who you could throw into a pit with a tiger and them not die? Any hollywood action star. John Wick would walk out of that pit. So would Jack Reacher. Any of the people from the Expendables.

And while tigers are the top of the food chain here... well, a wyvern is basically a flying, venomous tiger that can hunt in pairs or packs. And wyverns aren't at the top food chain either.

Justice and Rule said:

I mean, I think you'll find a lot of people to debate that. His ability to think and prep are basically a superpower in and of themselves, effectively supernatural to the point that people meme about the idea of "Batman with prep time". Plus Batman basically has super ninja powers that let him basically appear anywhere and everywhere he needs to be, often without concern for obstacles that might be in his way.

Really, Batman is a fantastic Mastermind Rogue whose ability to plan and his stealth are basically supernatural. He can literally sneak up on Superman, someone whose super-senses defy how senses actually work.

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Batman has become the Ultimate Gary Stu. Batman's superpower is really the number of writers who are absolute fanboys for him and coat him in plot armor thick enough to be its own zip code. He's a peak athlete and brilliant detective, but he should be a street level fighter and not winning boxing matches against Superman. Unfortunately, his popularity has elevated him to the point Darkseid will job to him now.

Batman should be a good example of a fighter. Hl But he's really a good example of a PC who the DM will bend over backwards to satisfy.

Remathilis said:

Batman has become the Ultimate Gary Stu. Batman's superpower is really the number of writers who are absolute fanboys for him and coat him in plot armor thick enough to be its own zip code. He's a peak athlete and brilliant detective, but he should be a street level fighter and not winning boxing matches against Superman. Unfortunately, his popularity has elevated him to the point Darkseid will job to him now.

Batman should be a good example of a fighter. Hl But he's really a good example of a PC who the DM will bend over backwards to satisfy.

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Nah, Batman's very much a Rogue. He's not about overpowering someone or withstanding things, he's about maneuvering, avoiding, and striking his enemy at their weakest. Much like the Rogue, Batman doesn't need to be the strongest, he just needs to know where to hit to cause the most damage.

And again, we talk about "street level", but what separates Batman from others is not his strength: When you catch him, he's boned. The problem is getting him in a position to be caught.

I think pointing to examples of mundane fighters in comics is kind of hard, because most of them are still superpowered in some way. If you want someone who is hyper-competent with all arms, will wear armor, and regularly uses her combat skills and uses them to overwhelm foes who may have a strength advantage, well...



Heck, she's even sword and board.

You know, thinking about it, you know what really grinds me about this? What really and truly highlights the issue in profound ways?

Mordenkainen.

Mordenkainen is a powerful force in the multiverse, working to keep the Nine Hells and the Celestial realms balanced. Demon Lords and Archdevils fear and respect him. He has a magical seal so powerful it can only be broken by a magical helm he created. He was just a normal man, who delved into magic.

There is also elminster, powerful mage, sage, and protector of the Forgotten Realms. Iggwiliv, powerful witch and rival and lover to the Demon Lord Graz'zt who fought him to a draw on his home plane.


What fighter do demon lords fear? What fighter has fought archdevils to a standstill and made them flee?

I know we are all DnD nerds, so we can name famous fighters... but none of them achieve that level of multiversal power. The mage characters played by the creators of the game have cemented themselves as vast powers within the multiverse... but the fighters played by those creators are barely even remembered, let alone given the status of something like the protector of a sphere.

50 year anniversary coming up. What fighters in DnD lore have fought a Power to a standstill? And were they elevated to godhood afterwards, to justfy it? After all Mordenkainen and Elminster aren't gods of magic. They are still just powerful mortal wizards.

Incenjucar said:

A fighter has numbers, but so does a wizard. They still have fewer options than a child who did some after-school karate.

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That is not true. Like I said above a D&D fighter can take on a Tiger with no weapons. A child in after school karate couldn't beat a German Sheppard.

Moreover all that child in Karate can do is make unarmed strikes, while the D&D fighter can do judo throws and wrestling pretty darn effectively and that is before we start talking about fighting styles.

Remathilis said:

Hmm. Maybe a fighter should gain special gear as they level that makes them able to do that kind of things. They don't fly, they get special cape gliders. They have customized armor, smoke bombs, putty arrows, grappling guns, anti-shark repellent. All those wonderful toys.

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Welcome back to 1st edition.

Zubatcarteira said:

A favorite of mine when he kicks a motorcycle in half:

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Dont forget Batman trained into/has magical mystical monk powers.

Chaosmancer said:

This is true of most characters. Period. Even the measly 10 con wizard ignores venomous snake bite 50% of the time. With half damage that means half of all wizards survive a bite from a cobra with no medical attention. Even commoners do this.

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How is that relevant? So what the Wizard is Robin, that hardly makes the fighter "ordinary"

The point is the fighter can do impossible things like Batman. People are running around acting like he can't.

Chaosmancer said:

So why are we basing IRL stuff on this?

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Because people claimed Batman can do impossible things, implying that somehow D&D fighters couldn't.

Chaosmancer said:

You know who you could throw into a pit with a tiger and them not die? Any hollywood action star. John Wick would walk out of that pit. So would Jack Reacher. Any of the people from the Expendables.

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I did not say throw them into a pit and not die. Lots of people can do that, have done that. What I said is beat a Tiger to death while naked with your bare hands or Grapple and restrain a tiger with your bare hands.

Jack Reacher might manage that, but like Batman he is a character, not an actor. Characters, like D&D fighters, routinely do impossible things. Tom Cruise would not manage to beat a Tiger to death while naked with his bare hands and neither would Ben Afflac.

Justice and Rule said:

I mean, I think you'll find a lot of people to debate that. His ability to think and prep are basically a superpower in and of themselves, effectively supernatural to the point that people meme about the idea of "Batman with prep time". Plus Batman basically has super ninja powers that let him basically appear anywhere and everywhere he needs to be, often without concern for obstacles that might be in his way.

Really, Batman is a fantastic Mastermind Rogue whose ability to plan and his stealth are basically supernatural. He can literally sneak up on Superman, someone whose super-senses defy how senses actually work.

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Also, didn't Batman study martial arts under Ra's Al Ghul? And doesn't he have a contingency plan to defeat every member of the Justice League in case they go rogue?

ECMO3 said:

That is not true. Like I said above a D&D fighter can take on a Tiger with no weapons. A child in after school karate couldn't beat a German Sheppard.

Moreover all that child in Karate can do is make unarmed strikes, while the D&D fighter can do judo throws and wrestling pretty darn effectively and that is before we start talking about fighting styles.

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That's numbers, not options.

A child doesn't need a specific weapon to make a tripping, blinding, or deafening attack.