D&D 5E Speculation thread! Vecna? Giants UA?

Parmandur · May 30, 2022

Paul Farquhar said:
Fizban's 2: This time it's Giants is far more plausible.

And a "primordial" setting is implausible, for mechanical reasons.

I think there are better odds that the next setting book is Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty.

Oh, I agree, but the material presented could be from a new Setting, which is hard to predict by virtue of novelty. But my gut definitely says Fizban's followup.

Urriak Uruk · May 30, 2022

Paul Farquhar said:
All of them are giant themed. Giants do not have to be humanoid.

Because it's logical for other reasons. We know WotC like to put out a sourcebook (that is not a setting or adventure) every year, therefore we know one is coming in 2023. There isn't really room for another rules book before the big 2024 do-over, which leaves us with "monster book". Fizban's was very successful, so it makes sense to repeat the format. After dragons the next big (and somewhat lacklustre) monster group is giants (including giant animals).

First World is not primordial.

There is no mention of giants in anything we have seen about the First World.

But it's not. It's "you get a large pet" themed. There is nothing to connect it to dinosaurs other than the suggestion that your large pet may take that form. Which has always been an option for beastmasters.

Certainly they are working on further settings, as well as further adventures and further monster books. But there is nothing to suggest the First World, which is not primeval, is one of them.

We are going in circles here so I'm going to stop replying soon, but it does seem like the First World is an attempt to re-constitute some 4E lore (much of what James Wyatt wrote himself) into something that also pairs with the new "Multiversal" cosmology that 5E is more recently pushing.

Some points in older editions lore;

The Material Plane was first populated and created by the Primordials (also known as Archomentals) who are huge elemental creatures. They include beings like Imix the Fire Lord and Olhyndra the Rain Queen.
The gods arrive on the Material Plane and seed the world with mortal life and try to stabilize the Material Plane to make it less elemental chaos.
The annoys the primordials (who prefer the much more elemental chaos) and they fight the gods for control of the world. Io, the dragon god, is split in twain by a primordial Erek-Hus who is then killed by the newly-formed Bahamut and Tiamat.
It is implied that Io's creation of dragons is what shattered the peace between the primordials and gods, as dragons control elements with their breath... the primordials viewed this as a step too far.
The Dawn War is quite complicated and multi-faceted, with many gods and primordials being killed, some primordials imprisoned, and some gods falling to evil. But eventually, it stabilizes into the cosmology of 4E.
Giants are said to be the first races to inhabit many worlds on the Material Plane, and in the Dawn War they are servants of the Primordials. The first battle of the Dawn War was when the giants and titans besieged Stoneroot, seeking to enslave all the dwarves.
On many worlds (most famously Forgotten Realms), the rule of giants comes to an end when the giant empires and dragons go to war for a thousand years. This stalemate shattered both races power, leading to the rise of the "small-folk" civilizations.

In my view, the First World looks to be an attempt to collate, consolidate, and reincorporate this old lore into 5E to re-knit things like Planescape, Spelljammer, and a Multiverse. @Parmandur seems to believe that it will be a primordial/giant/orc book that just explains all this stuff more, but I'm thinking it will be a full-one "how to play in the First World" book. It's probably one or the other but the latter is one I both prefer and think makes sense based on what we've seen/are expecting.

Parmandur · May 30, 2022

Urriak Uruk said:
Primordials... the folks who lived on the Material Plane before dragons fought them... the prehistoric war that led to the age of mortals... seems pretty First World to me. And James Wyatt also wrote the First World lore too.

See, this comes down to an interpretation of how WotC is utilizing the "First World" (not what it "really means" because it's just something Wyatt made up). Fizban's usage was brief, vague, and indeterminate...which allowed Wyatt to ha dwave how come Dragons work mostly the same on Greyhawk and Eberron, because Occult reasons.

The indeterminate, openended nature of the "First World" let's WotC have their cake and eat it, too: they can have brand identity qcross worlds without needing to come up with a 2E style explanation of how that works.

i don't think thst they will give that tool up by explicitly defining the "First World." I expect they will muddy waters further take it less certain how it "really" works. So, I think they will use it here, but only insofar as they did in Fizban's.

And again, the "First World" usage is conceptually different from the "First World." This material could be for a new Setting that doesn't involve the "First World" anymore than Greyhawk does.

Urriak Uruk said:
See, I find this funny because no one thought a giant book was coming. But as soon as one UA with the title "Giant" comes out, folks jump to the idea that an entire sourcebook on giants is coming. Seems like a red herring when one of them isn't very giant themed.

We also didn't think Spelljammer was immenent before the Spelljammer UA. Dinosaurs are linked to the Primordials, who also underlay the Giants who are the poster boys for the whole Primordial ecosystem. They make sense in a Giant book, to provide an explanation of D&D dinosaurs.

Urriak Uruk · May 30, 2022

Parmandur said:
Dinosaurs are linked to the Primordials, who also underlay the Giants who are the poster boys for the whole Primordial ecosystem. They make sense in a Giant book, to provide an explanation of D&D dinosaurs.

The more we talk about primordials and dinosaurs linked to giants, the more it makes sense that this is a First World book to me. If the D&D team really just wanted to make "Fizban's, but Giants," I don't see why there is any need to make them so explicitly tied to primordials or dinosaurs. It's just not necessary to make a giant-centric book. This UA however seems to do exactly that, so it seems at minimum they're going to expand the lore around the First World.

I'm just saying that why wouldn't they go full-hog and make a full prehistoric setting if they're already going to flesh out the concept more? Fits a niche that 5E hasn't filled yet, the subclasses fit the concept well. Matches how they're making new settings. I can definitely see the team mapping their cosmology for making the Multiverse, James Wyatt pitching this First World idea, and the team saying "Sure good idea, lets add that to our list of potential new books" and then Wyatt seeding the hint of it in Fizban's.

Urriak Uruk · May 30, 2022

The first reply on the UA reddit post for DNDnext... I'm not sure if having reddit on my side is positive for my argument or not...

Parmandur · May 30, 2022

Urriak Uruk said:
In my view, the First World looks to be an attempt to collate, consolidate, and reincorporate this old lore into 5E to re-knit things like Planescape, Spelljammer, and a Multiverse.

Yup, that's thr long and the short of it. Based on how they treated it in Fizban's (a little Runequest-y), I think they want to keep it as mythical and open to interpretation as possible, to stay useful as a tool.

Parmandur · May 30, 2022

Urriak Uruk said:
The more we talk about primordials and dinosaurs linked to giants, the more it makes sense that this is a First World book to me. If the D&D team really just wanted to make "Fizban's, but Giants," I don't see why there is any need to make them so explicitly tied to primordials or dinosaurs. It's just not necessary to make a giant-centric book. This UA however seems to do exactly that, so it seems at minimum they're going to expand the lore around the First World.

I'm just saying that why wouldn't they go full-hog and make a full prehistoric setting if they're already going to flesh out the concept more? Fits a niche that 5E hasn't filled yet, the subclasses fit the concept well. Matches how they're making new settings. I can definitely see the team mapping their cosmology for making the Multiverse, James Wyatt pitching this First World idea, and the team saying "Sure good idea, lets add that to our list of potential new books" and then Wyatt seeding the hint of it in Fizban's.

Because it allows them to get those high level Primordial stat blocks in, and give Dinosaurs a lore based reason for hanging around in Greyhawk or Dark Sun or wherever.

Parmandur · May 30, 2022

Urriak Uruk said:
The first reply on the UA reddit post for DNDnext... I'm not sure if having reddit on my side is positive for my argument or not...

View attachment 249642

Depends on the Subreddit. The first comment on DNDLeaks was a "clearly for a Giant Fizban book."

Minigiant · May 30, 2022

I think WOTC is doing the "All the gods are out there and the setting use different sets of gods thing"..

So maybe WOTC is doing a world where the Primordials...won?

Urriak Uruk · May 30, 2022

Minigiant said:
I think WOTC is doing the "All the gods are out there and the setting use different sets of gods thing"..

So maybe WOTC is doing a world where the Primordials...won?

I remember that was the 4E explanation for why Dark Sun doesn't have gods.

D&D 5E Speculation thread! Vecna? Giants UA?

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