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D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I think this type of thinking misses that there can be a mixture between dice rolls and roleplay that both changes how the outcome occurs.

For example, I have a box and the box has a hole in it. The players can roleplay with the box, describing different actions they do. These actions then fuel the DM's decision for dice rolls, possibly changing the modifier, advantage, or even the DC.

One player suggests putting their ear to the box to listen to it. Well, they hear nothing. One player wants to look into the box to see what's inside. The box is in Darkness but the player has darkvision, they make a perception check with disadvantage. They fail and can't make out the contents. One player picks it up and shakes it, making a Strength check, revealing its a heavy and metallic item. Finally, one player says "screw it" and opens the box, its Demonic Armor.

Each player did something different and the results were different. Some of them relied on rolls, others passed/failed automatically.
And how does any of this map to, "You've arrived at a vista, make a perception check so I can tell you more things?"

It doesn't. Your defense of the initial point is to create a completely different situation where players are declaring actions that require resolution. The vista example had no such declarations, and no input from the players to impact resolution at all -- it was just flipping over the next card in the Candyland deck.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Choices may or may not open up depending on the result of the check, which I don't think excludes it from exploration. If my passive check is insufficient, it might preclude me from automatically detecting a trap, but since I'm exploring the dungeon that this trap is in, I think it's solidly part of exploration, irrespective of choice. To be clear, I do believe that choice is very important. It just isn't necessary at every micro-step of exploration resolution. I don't think that we suddenly shunt out of exploration when the DM calls for a roll, and then shunt back immediately thereafter if the result presents the player with a choice.

You're also ignoring my second paragraph wherein there was no check. It simply presents the PCs with information. They can either act on that information or ignore it, which most certainly is a choice.
Passive perception is due to repeated actions -- it's the average value of multiple checks. It's not an innate ability to see things, but rather the result of a continuous action declared by the player for the PC. "I'm watching for traps," is the declared action, which you are resolving with passive perception. This can be improved by the player in myriad ways, and they are likely to do so because the situation is one in which traps are expected, so maybe they have a light source instead of relying on darkvision.

The vista example is one where the vista is suddenly announced by the GM, and then perception checks are asked for, which is the GM assuming the action and declaring it for the players, and then the results of the check is whether or not you reveal something more than you already were. There's no action declaration here from the player -- the GM is really just puppeting the PCs to flip over the next card in the Candyland deck and see if they get stuck in the gumdrop swamp or get to take the shortcut closer to the finish. The only thing being resolved here is what the GM thinks. No player input is at all necessary for this to play out -- they might as well be looking at their phones.
 

TheSword

Legend
Or it might be that it's actually a good mechanic that speeds up play a lot and take some unnecessary hassle out of skills resolution. That's my take on it, even though 4e and 5e did not follow suit (I'm sure about 5e and pretty sure about 4e). But 5e has even better, automatic success or failure.



Why ? Just for the pleasure of rolling the dice ? Of frustrating the players ? It's not a roll-playing game.



Or it serves to make exploration story-driven rather than more random. Again, YCMV and to each his own, I can understand both ways of wanting to play the game.



It works for a lot of us, you know, it's about role-playing, the character might have thought about bringing something that the player did not know about. I don't have to be a wizard to play one, which is a good thing. And I have better things to do than to list extra pairs of socks on my character sheet, for example.

Again, it's a question of style of play, both are valid, calling one "cheating" is not going to make the discussion go better.



And this is probably one of the reasons for the different opinions above, I enjoy exploration, but like roleplaying even more in general. :D
I think my preference is to make them roll if there is a risk and if there isn’t risk not make them roll and let that speed up play. I agree that asking players to knock their head against mundane tasks is fairly boring. Though it’s very rare that I set DCs higher than 20 - 25 anyway so taking 20 would be a very great boon. I think 5e has the balance about right as you say.

Interestingly I enjoy the roleplay immensely too. Though I enjoy it a lot more if there is a well crafted world I’ve had chance to interact with and explore a bit first. Without this roleplay just seems a bit flat too me.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
In sum total, yes; at least going by the "official" write-ups.

Now please, do it again, and pay more attention to "set aside the specific wording from WotC for a moment." Let us look at the concept outside of WotC's statements for a bit.

Not quite: I see it that every action at the table is 100% under the sum-total bailiwick of some combination of these pillars, most frequently just one, sometimes two, and rarely-but-not-never all three at once.

But, by your own assertion, Downtime doesn't fit well into these pillars - it calls for its own pillar, in your mind. Why are you saying every action of the table is 100% described by the three pillars, when you say there ought to be a fourth?

--------

I have three file boxes - Red, Yellow, and Green. I sort things into boxes by color.

Now, consider what we should do with this:
1629985774989.png


Many would just shrug, and put it in the Red box. Others would say they need a new box for things like this. And others might just leave it out, because it is one small item, and there's so many that cleanly fit into boxes.

Others might ask: What is the purpose of putting things in boxes? We can tell what box it should go in, if any, if we know the purpose for the exercise.

If the purpose of the exercise is, for example, to criticize how WotC talks about its games, by noting how one of the boxes is kind of battered and ripped, we can just stop now, because that is terribly uninteresting.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Passive perception is due to repeated actions -- it's the average value of multiple checks. It's not an innate ability to see things, but rather the result of a continuous action declared by the player for the PC. "I'm watching for traps," is the declared action, which you are resolving with passive perception. This can be improved by the player in myriad ways, and they are likely to do so because the situation is one in which traps are expected, so maybe they have a light source instead of relying on darkvision.

The vista example is one where the vista is suddenly announced by the GM, and then perception checks are asked for, which is the GM assuming the action and declaring it for the players, and then the results of the check is whether or not you reveal something more than you already were. There's no action declaration here from the player -- the GM is really just puppeting the PCs to flip over the next card in the Candyland deck and see if they get stuck in the gumdrop swamp or get to take the shortcut closer to the finish. The only thing being resolved here is what the GM thinks. No player input is at all necessary for this to play out -- they might as well be looking at their phones.
You're still ignoring the second example, wherein the DM is offering information freely. Maybe instead of saying the trees are withered, the DM says they see something glinting in the forest below. This does offer the players a choice. They can ignore the glinting and continue on, or step off the path and investigate.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Passive perception is due to repeated actions -- it's the average value of multiple checks. It's not an innate ability to see things, but rather the result of a continuous action declared by the player for the PC.

This is only part of what passive represents, if it was only the average of a continuous action, it would not be called passive. The PH is clear on this, and I support both views: "Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."

The second one is not active at all and does not represent an average.

The vista example is one where the vista is suddenly announced by the GM, and then perception checks are asked for, which is the GM assuming the action and declaring it for the players, and then the results of the check is whether or not you reveal something more than you already were. There's no action declaration here from the player -- the GM is really just puppeting the PCs to flip over the next card in the Candyland deck and see if they get stuck in the gumdrop swamp or get to take the shortcut closer to the finish. The only thing being resolved here is what the GM thinks. No player input is at all necessary for this to play out -- they might as well be looking at their phones.

They might, but this is a roleplaying game, and characters abilities matter. When describing the vistas, even without special actions (i.e. "active") checks, some characters with a higher perception might notice details that the others missed. This is the other use of the passive check.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
I think my preference is to make them roll if there is a risk and if there isn’t risk not make them roll and let that speed up play. I agree that asking players to knock their head against mundane tasks is fairly boring. Though it’s very rare that I set DCs higher than 20 - 25 anyway so taking 20 would be a very great boon. I think 5e has the balance about right as you say.

Interestingly I enjoy the roleplay immensely too. Though I enjoy it a lot more if there is a well crafted world I’ve had chance to interact with and explore a bit first. Without this roleplay just seems a bit flat too me.

This is why I'm glad that 5e has "upgraded" the Take 20 to potential automatic success (and failure), so that I can take into account the roleplay as well as the capabilities of the character. They are not mutually exclusive, and for me it's a benefit of 5e and it's "it's all a DM's call anyway" attitude that allows the DM to adjudicate with exactly the right amount of what the campaign need, rather than be stuck with the 3e "player centric" view where roleplay does not matter and some players would say "I take 20, my search result is 34, what do I find" without the slightest hint of roleplay.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This is only part of what passive represents, if it was only the average of a continuous action, it would not be called passive. The PH is clear on this, and I support both views: "Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."

The second one is not active at all and does not represent an average.
The latter isn't anything different though -- the player has declared actions that indicate that their character is on the lookout for monsters, the passive check is just a way to resolve that result "secretly." If the player had declared an action that prevents noticing the monster, passive checks wouldn't matter. They only apply to situations where the event is something the PC is trying to do because of player action declarations and the GM elects to resolve this "secretly." It's not categorically different in the manner I'm discussing.
They might, but this is a roleplaying game, and characters abilities matter. When describing the vistas, even without special actions (i.e. "active") checks, some characters with a higher perception might notice details that the others missed. This is the other use of the passive check.
Of course they matter, but this doesn't give the GM the ability to puppet the PCs. The matter when the player declares actions and the GM elects to resolve those actions using the mechanics of the game.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You're still ignoring the second example, wherein the DM is offering information freely. Maybe instead of saying the trees are withered, the DM says they see something glinting in the forest below. This does offer the players a choice. They can ignore the glinting and continue on, or step off the path and investigate.
Because I don't have issue with free offers of information because they do prod for action declarations. Are you abandoning the first example, then?
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
The latter isn't anything different though -- the player has declared actions that indicate that their character is on the lookout for monsters, the passive check is just a way to resolve that result "secretly."

I don't agree. Nothing in that description requires the player to have declared anything. It's just to see if the character succeeds, but it can be something that he does instinctively or naturally, it applies to both.

If the player had declared an action that prevents noticing the monster, passive checks wouldn't matter. They only apply to situations where the event is something the PC is trying to do because of player action declarations and the GM elects to resolve this "secretly." It's not categorically different in the manner I'm discussing.

It is different because you are restrictive in the way you apply the passive, but the game allows for more situations right out of the box.

Of course they matter, but this doesn't give the GM the ability to puppet the PCs.

The DM can puppet the character exactly when he wants. Of course, a good DM will not abuse this, but nothing prevents it. He just describes what happens, that's all.

The matter when the player declares actions and the GM elects to resolve those actions using the mechanics of the game.

Not only. The DM describes a situation, and takes into account the characters' abilities, without a specific description of an action by the player. 100% in the rules and the intent of the game.
 

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