Larian's Next Game?

MarkB

Legend
Big open workds are best for mechanically complex action games, IMO, not narratively deep RPGs.
Not that those are exclusive categories. Some games can be both - a lot of Sony's PS-exclusive storygames like Horizon Zero Dawn and Ghost of Tsushima combine mechanically complex action with deep narratives in large open worlds. It's just more of a challenge to get all of those components right.
 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend, he/him
Not that those are exclusive categories. Some games can be both - a lot of Sony's PS-exclusive storygames like Horizon Zero Dawn and Ghost of Tsushima combine mechanically complex action with deep narratives in large open worlds. It's just more of a challenge to get all of those components right.
But those narratives are less complex than a BaldurGate, say. Even if they are good.
 

Big open workds are best for mechanically complex action games, IMO, not narratively deep RPGs.
I think there are hybrids where it can work, like Elden Ring (which has a gigantic-feeling world, but one that never feels bland or procedural, always custom and specific) and Dragon's Dogma 1/2, but even Dragon's Dogma 2 (which is pretty great) feels like it would be a better game if the open world was smaller and more detailed like DD1 and its expansion were. Also Cyberpunk 2077 I feel like Night City and environs is about the right size for what they're doing, but I hope the sequel they're working on just goes for more detail, rather than an even bigger world.

Not that those are exclusive categories. Some games can be both - a lot of Sony's PS-exclusive storygames like Horizon Zero Dawn and Ghost of Tsushima combine mechanically complex action with deep narratives in large open worlds. It's just more of a challenge to get all of those components right.
Those are linear narratives, more or less, though, and have "RPG elements" rather than being RPGs in a more meaningful sense where you might have genuine choices that real impacts.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend, he/him
I think there are hybrids where it can work, like Elden Ring (which has a gigantic-feeling world, but one that never feels bland or procedural, always custom and specific) and Dragon's Dogma 1/2, but even Dragon's Dogma 2 (which is pretty great) feels like it would be a better game if the open world was smaller and more detailed like DD1 and its expansion were. Also Cyberpunk 2077 I feel like Night City and environs is about the right size for what they're doing, but I hope the sequel they're working on just goes for more detail, rather than an even bigger world.


Those are linear narratives, more or less, though, and have "RPG elements" rather than being RPGs in a more meaningful sense where you might have genuine choices that real impacts.
It is a fuzzy line, but I would compare Elden Ring and Dragon's Dogma overall more to Zelda and Assasin's Creed than to Baldur's Gate or Mass Effect.
 

It is a fuzzy line, but I would compare Elden Ring and Dragon's Dogma overall more to Zelda and Assasin's Creed than to Baldur's Gate or Mass Effect.
And Assassin's Creed: Odyssey and Valhalla got compared a lot to Mass Effect specifically, and with good reason (Mirage, less so).

Comparing to BotW is an poor comparison though, I'd suggest. There are absolutely games which take real inspiration from BotW (Genshin, Fenyx), but ER doesn't seem to be one of them, despite Miyazaki's comments that he was influenced by the Elder Scrolls games, Witcher 3, and BotW (all of which it's kind of hard to see much real influence from - ER seems be like 95% Dark Souls DNA). DD2 definitely isn't inspired by BotW at all - indeed, it's basically a remake of DD1, but kind of not as good, so predates BotW's design by a long period.

BotW is also a game I think that is, despite, having some hyperfans, pretty bland and could stand to be a bit smaller, more focused, and less repetitive. I bought a Switch pretty much just to play it, because I bought in to what people were saying, and I ended up being pretty unimpressed. It's an 8/10 game with some cute tricks and being mainline Zelda got it the automatic +2/10 that every mainline Zelda game has got for the last 30 years. Whenever the next Nintendo console comes out (presumably the Switch 2), I need to remember that American reviewers 100% cannot be trusted with reviewing any mainline (or close to that) Mario, Zelda, Smash, or Mario Kart game, and should be taken with gigantic amounts of salt when reviewing any Nintendo first-party game.

(Honestly I should have learned this lesson all the way back on the GameCube with Super Mario Sunshine, which pretty much every US reviewer acted like was the best game ever made, but which wasn't even a good Mario game - or really even fun.)
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
People who were blown away by Breath of the Wild, IME, were people who hadn't played a CRPG or JRPG in 20 years. I mean, yes, the state of the art had moved on and is a lot better. The big innovation, such as it is, was that BotW introduced open world RPGs to their largest audience to date.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend, he/him
And Assassin's Creed: Odyssey and Valhalla got compared a lot to Mass Effect specifically, and with good reason (Mirage, less so).
I mean, but less so with older AC games.
Comparing to BotW is an poor comparison though, I'd suggest. There are absolutely games which take real inspiration from BotW (Genshin, Fenyx), but ER doesn't seem to be one of them, despite Miyazaki's comments that he was influenced by the Elder Scrolls games, Witcher 3, and BotW (all of which it's kind of hard to see much real influence from - ER seems be like 95% Dark Souls DNA). DD2 definitely isn't inspired by BotW at all - indeed, it's basically a remake of DD1, but kind of not as good, so predates BotW's design by a long period.
Dragon Dogma and Dark Souls were pretty big influences BotW, though?
BotW is also a game I think that is, despite, having some hyperfans, pretty bland and could stand to be a bit smaller, more focused, and less repetitive. I bought a Switch pretty much just to play it, because I bought in to what people were saying, and I ended up being pretty unimpressed. It's an 8/10 game with some cute tricks and being mainline Zelda got it the automatic +2/10 that every mainline Zelda game has got for the last 30 years. Whenever the next Nintendo console comes out (presumably the Switch 2), I need to remember that American reviewers 100% cannot be trusted with reviewing any mainline (or close to that) Mario, Zelda, Smash, or Mario Kart game, and should be taken with gigantic amounts of salt when reviewing any Nintendo first-party game.

(Honestly I should have learned this lesson all the way back on the GameCube with Super Mario Sunshine, which pretty much every US reviewer acted like was the best game ever made, but which wasn't even a good Mario game - or really even fun.)
Hah, bought a Wii U to play BotW, anf got probavly around 500 hours out of 100% completing it, then bought it on Switch later to play it more. Honestly one of the greatest games ever made, couldn't possibly identify less with considering it boring.
 

Dragon Dogma and Dark Souls were pretty big influences BotW, though?
I honestly don't think either of them influenced BotW. I very much doubt the design team was even really aware of Dragon's Dogma - it was much-ignored.

The designers of BotW said Skyrim and Shadow of the Colossus were the primary influences, which is interesting. I can definitely see the latter - particularly in the movement and the bigger monsters, and the former I guess in the focus on physics and freedom of choice/direction.

Looking it up I see some sadly un-persuasive and reach-y arguments that Dark Souls influenced BotW, but I very much believe that's backfilling. What I think is more plausible and certainly is easier to support is Monster Hunter as another major influence. There's a ton of Monster Hunter-esque stuff and almost everything people try to claim was "Dark Souls-influenced" in BotW is easier to explain as Monster Hunter-influenced (you could actually claim MH influenced Dark Souls were it not for a clear line of descent from the King's Field games to Demon's Souls, long pre-dating MH).

Looking the other way, one sees a lot of weird claims that BotW influenced other games too which often require there to have basically been no open-world games before BotW. Like this ludicrous idiot-argument I just read that Horizon: Forbidden West only has gliders because of BotW, when in fact open-world and semi-open-world games have had gliders and similar in them for decades (including really big ones where it was a major feature! Like Just Cause or Arkham Asylum). For a while every other open-world or semi-open-world game was to be forgotten and discarded, and we were to pretend BotW came up with every innovation, even ones from decades before it came out! I'm still bitter about an article I read a few years ago which listed all of BotW's supposed "innovations", and was just a giant list of stuff done first in other games - in most cases several other games, and done better in many of them! This was on IGN or something too! I can only assume it was written by a very young 20-something who did zero research. At least this idiocy seems to have died down significantly since BotW2 came out for whatever reason.

Hah, bought a Wii U to play BotW, anf got probavly around 500 hours out of 100% completing it, then bought it on Switch later to play it more. Honestly one of the greatest games ever made, couldn't possibly identify less with considering it boring.
I found it fascinating for like 5 hours, then I realized that I'd basically comprehended everything it was trying to do, and it was just a matter of execution. Combine that with me having absolutely no interest in the Zelda mythos post-A Link To The Past, the story being non-existent and me not vibing with the BotW aesthetic at all (I mean, I was impressed with it from a purely artistic perspective, but I didn't like it - it didn't speak to me - only the pixel Zeldas did), and was just not into it. I thought, I guess I should keep playing, people say it's amazing, maybe it'll pick up later, and then like 20 hours after that I was like "Ok, no, you've spent enough time on this, you're not having any fun, you're terminally bored, you were right you'd understood it after 5 hours, and are now repeating yourself in different forms and wishing for a fast-forward button rather than living in the world". Even then I lied to myself and said I'd come back to it later. I think if I'd played a lot fewer open-world games before it (I'd basically played all of them - since the 1980s and stuff like Damocles), and a lot fewer sandbox-y games, and maybe it had a different aesthetic, I'd have felt pretty differently.

I didn't even remember there was a Wii U version, interesting the things that get lost!
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend, he/him
honestly don't think either of them influenced BotW. I very much doubt the design team was even really aware of Dragon's Dogma - it was much-ignored.

The designers of BotW said Skyrim and Shadow of the Colossus were the primary influences, which is interesting. I can definitely see the latter - particularly in the movement and the bigger monsters, and the former I guess in the focus on physics and freedom of choice/direction.

Looking it up I see some sadly un-persuasive and reach-y arguments that Dark Souls influenced BotW, but I very much believe that's backfilling. What I think is more plausible and certainly is easier to support is Monster Hunter as another major influence. There's a ton of Monster Hunter-esque stuff and almost everything people try to claim was "Dark Souls-influenced" in BotW is easier to explain as Monster Hunter-influenced (you could actually claim MH influenced Dark Souls were it not for a clear line of descent from the King's Field games to Demon's Souls, long pre-dating MH).
I see all of those games very much echoed in BotW, particularly with bosses and the major monsters for Dark Souls or Monster Hinter.

One of the reasons we can be fairly certain that the Nintendo team was influenced by Skyrom and Dark Souls is that they published those two games for the Switch, fir the stated reason that the Zelda team was influenced by them. Same with Nintendo publishing Red Dead Redemption recently.
found it fascinating for like 5 hours, then I realized that I'd basically comprehended everything it was trying to do, and it was just a matter of execution. Combine that with me having absolutely no interest in the Zelda mythos post-A Link To The Past, the story being non-existent and me not vibing with the BotW aesthetic at all (I mean, I was impressed with it from a purely artistic perspective, but I didn't like it - it didn't speak to me - only the pixel Zeldas did), and was just not into it. I thought, I guess I should keep playing, people say it's amazing, maybe it'll pick up later, and then like 20 hours after that I was like "Ok, no, you've spent enough time on this, you're not having any fun, you're terminally bored, you were right you'd understood it after 5 hours, and are now repeating yourself in different forms and wishing for a fast-forward button rather than living in the world". Even then I lied to myself and said I'd come back to it later. I think if I'd played a lot fewer open-world games before it (I'd basically played all of them - since the 1980s and stuff like Damocles), and a lot fewer sandbox-y games, and maybe it had a different aesthetic, I'd have felt pretty differently.
Tge last 495 hours were as fun fir me as the first 5, and I had a fun first 5 hours.

The joy of execution is a big part of the reason I play video games at all, so there is that.
I didn't even remember there was a Wii U version, interesting the things that get lost!
I got a Wii U in 2013 specifically so that I could play BotW in 2015...fortunately, I enjoyed the overall Wii U experience, it was worth it for me in the end.

Kids these days, and their fully portable consoles.
 

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