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D&D 2E Let's Read the AD&D 2nd Edition PHB+DMG!

Staffan

Legend
It seems to me that no one at TSR (or WotC until 5e), understood the merit of having an on-ramp (distinct from just a starter set). It's a small jump from Basic Rules to Expert Rules, and then a small jump from Expert Rules to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (either edition). But instead of leveraging this, D&D was just considered this weird off-shoot, and especially after 1989, was slowly killed off.
I wonder to what degree that had to do with D&D having to be kept legally distinct from AD&D. I'm not sure about the details, but way back in the day TSR wanted to stop paying Dave Arneson royalties, so they claimed Advanced Dungeons & Dragons was a distinct game from Dungeons & Dragons, and apparently mostly prevailed in court. Since the 1e Monster Manual was released with just a Dungeons & Dragons logo, Arneson got royalties for that, and I think also for Monster Manual 2 because that was clearly derived from the Monster Manual. That's why 2e had the Monstrous Compendium and later the Monstrous Manual instead.
Why is percentile strength even a thing?
Gygax seems to have been a fan of piling on benefits to those who already have them. So, you're a fighter and you're really strong? Well, here's a dose of additional super strength! You're good at the stat relevant to your class? Here, have some bonus XP!

I remember the same thing coming back in Gygax's later work, Dangerous Journeys/Mythus. As part of character generation, you'd roll for birth rank, and if you turned out to be the 7th child of a 7th child (or even better, 7th son/daughter of a 7th son/daughter) you'd get a bunch of extra benefits for that. Similarly, someone who took the Dweomercræfter or Priestcræfter classes had a small percentile chance of being a "true practitioner" which meant you'd get 10x the amount of mana from that skill (which translated to something like double mana overall) and get a bonus on casting the appropriate spells.
To the point that, until re-reading the 2nd Edition books a few years ago, I never realized that many of the things I took for granted, like the exploration turn, were not in 2nd Edition. And it wasn't until I was checking the 1st Edition books for another thread last week that I realized, they're not in the 1st Edition book, either. 1st Edition will make reference to such things. For example, in the section "Time in the Dungeon," it says, "It is essential that an accurate time record be kept so that the DM can determine when to check for wandering monsters," and Appendix C: Random Monster Encounters, it notes "When a random encounter is indicated by the periodic check...", but no where does it explain when and how such checks are done. Or if it is, it is so buried in some other obscure part of the DMG that I can't find it. But, coming from a B/X background, I just assumed that the procedure was to roll a 1d6 every two turns, with a 1 indicating wandering monsters, and never thought anything about it.
2e definitely had turns as a time-keeping unit. I don't recall the "exploration turn", but 1 turn = 10 minutes was definitely a thing. The DMG goes into a lot of detail on how to build encounter tables and such, but offers a light touch when it comes to how often they should be used. There is a suggestion of once per hour (with a 1 in d10 chance) for most dungeons, and once per turn for particularly dangerous areas.
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I wonder to what degree that had to do with D&D having to be kept legally distinct from AD&D. I'm not sure about the details, but way back in the day TSR wanted to stop paying Dave Arneson royalties, so they claimed Advanced Dungeons & Dragons was a distinct game from Dungeons & Dragons, and apparently mostly prevailed in court. Since the 1e Monster Manual was released with just a Dungeons & Dragons logo, Arneson got royalties for that, and I think also for Monster Manual 2 because that was clearly derived from the Monster Manual. That's why 2e had the Monstrous Compendium and later the Monstrous Manual instead.

Gygax seems to have been a fan of piling on benefits to those who already have them. So, you're a fighter and you're really strong? Well, here's a dose of additional super strength! You're good at the stat relevant to your class? Here, have some bonus XP!

I remember the same thing coming back in Gygax's later work, Dangerous Journeys/Mythus. As part of character generation, you'd roll for birth rank, and if you turned out to be the 7th child of a 7th child (or even better, 7th son/daughter of a 7th son/daughter) you'd get a bunch of extra benefits for that. Similarly, someone who took the Dweomercræfter or Priestcræfter classes had a small percentile chance of being a "true practitioner" which meant you'd get 10x the amount of mana from that skill (which translated to something like double mana overall) and get a bonus on casting the appropriate spells.

2e definitely had turns as a time-keeping unit. I don't recall the "exploration turn", but 1 turn = 10 minutes was definitely a thing. The DMG goes into a lot of detail on how to build encounter tables and such, but offers a light touch when it comes to how often they should be used. There is a suggestion of once per hour (with a 1 in d10 chance) for most dungeons, and once per turn for particularly dangerous areas.
Don't forget the secret super bonus of maybe being psionic!
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
My two brothers and I were BECMI players for four solid years with little contact with the wider gaming or even D&D world. We occasionally found "best of Dragon" books at the local mall book store, but that was it. When we finalyl moved out of podunk, we discovered AD&D -- two months before 2E was released. So, my "education" was through homebrew BECMI and we ended up going almost directly to 2E, except we had these 1E books that injected our 2E games with just enough Gygaxisms to make it weird. Aside from Dragonlance, we never had any use for any published settings except the extremely lightly sketched out Known World from the Expert set, and the singular module that informed our playstyle was The Isle of Dread.
I am planning on running Isle of Dread in my Level Up campaign next week. Never run it before. Anyone have thoughts on the module? Best practices?

Edit: I should probably start a new thread on this actually.
 

Iosue

Legend
2e definitely had turns as a time-keeping unit. I don't recall the "exploration turn", but 1 turn = 10 minutes was definitely a thing. The DMG goes into a lot of detail on how to build encounter tables and such, but offers a light touch when it comes to how often they should be used. There is a suggestion of once per hour (with a 1 in d10 chance) for most dungeons, and once per turn for particularly dangerous areas.
2nd Edition technically has a turn, defined as 10 one-minute rounds, but its only use is in spell casting times and durations. In Moldvay, for example, everything outside of encounters revolves around the turn. Your base movement is how far you can move in a turn of exploration. A search of a room takes 1 turn. Wandering Monsters are rolled every 2 turns. You have to rest 1 turn every 6 turns. Torches burn for 6 turns. This breaks the exploration into manageable chunks. Every turn, the DM takes stock, rolls Wandering Monsters if needed, marks off time left on light sources, and how long before the party needs to rest.

In 2nd Edition, there are no turn-based exploration movement rates. You could do it, but since a character with a movement rate of 6 can move 600 feet in one turn of 10 minutes, there's really no point. 2nd Edition is written to use the 1 minute rounds, instead. Light source burning times, for instance, are given in minutes and hours. Random Encounter checks are made once "every hour" (and a 1-in-10 chance, to boot!), or otherwise as the DM determines. Searching a 20' section of wall for secret doors takes "10 minutes." Parties never need to rest.

Basically, 2nd Edition attempted to consolidate all units into standard time and distance units. "Round" is kept because of its use in combat. I assume the use of rounds and turns for spell casting times and durations was maintain continuity with the previous edition.

I should also retract this:
To the point that, until re-reading the 2nd Edition books a few years ago, I never realized that many of the things I took for granted, like the exploration turn, were not in 2nd Edition. And it wasn't until I was checking the 1st Edition books for another thread last week that I realized, they're not in the 1st Edition book, either.
Turns out, the section on movement in the PHB does note that a PC's movement rate is 1" = 10' per 10 minute turn in a dungeon. And other exploration actions (listening at a door, searching a room, etc.) are given in rounds and turns in the description of the sample dungeon in the DMG. So technically it was 2nd Edition that removed the turn-based procedures for exploration, in favor of a more freeform style using natural units. (That said, the fact that this stuff was relegated to a sample dungeon in the Campaign chapter, rather than given pride of place in the Adventure chapter indicates to me that 2nd Edition was merely completing a process begun in 1st Edition.)
 


Yora

Legend
My issue with them tends to be more what you've talked about in the Learning the Game and Example of Play sessions. While the organization is great, the books really fail at teaching a new or inexperienced DM HOW to run the game. The DMG, in particular, hems and haws all over the place trying to cater to both story-forward and classic players, but leaving new players lacking in direction and guidance.
A big issue with all the DMGs. They all fail spectacularly in doing any amount of guiding.
 


el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
I love a good example of play. I found the one in the 2E PHB evocative and reread it many times. But yes, I had already been playing running D&D for 6ish years at that point - so wasn't looking for instruction so much as suggestions/examples
 

The example of play is pretty standard, though I notice a distinct absence of procedural examples. There is only the DM checking a fighter's STR score to see if he can move the block, and the DM rolling the PC's attempts to find a secret door. Most of it is the DM describing something, the players doing something, and the DM describing the result. Which is absolutely fine, and gets across the idea that role-playing is an interaction between the DM and the players. But I think what I want to see from an example of play is demonstrations of how a DM knows what to do, and how they have their information. These early examples of play tend to be written so that they are almost entirely dialogue between the players and the DM. I'd like to see a little more "stage directions", as it were.
This is interesting to me because I'm pretty sure that the 1e DMG's example of play had a lot more of the DM asking for dice rolls, even bend bars/lift gates, so maybe it was more representative of actual table play. If memory serves me right, I'm pretty sure the location is the same between 1e and 2e, but I could be wrong.
 

Iosue

Legend
Ability Scores (continued)

On page 16, underneath the Intelligence bonus table, is a nice, moody black-and-white art piece that I'm almost certain was done by Jeff Easley. We see four warriors from behind, approaching a ruined tower, while birds (perhaps bats?) flock in the sky. The action is framed by dead or winter trees, their branches denuded of any leaves. I tried to find an online image of it, but had no luck.

Intelligence – The content of the Intelligence bonus table is unchanged from 1st Edition, except that Minimum Number of Spells/Level has been removed, and Spell Immunity has been added. Spell Immunity only applies to illusions, and goes from 1st level illusions at INT 19 to 7th level illusions at INT 25. The Number of Languages now also indicates the number of non-weapon proficiencies, if that optional rule is used.

One of my favorite bits of AD&D was the Chance to Learn Spell roll. Not because I enjoyed rolling to see if I learned a spell, but because of what it said about magic in the AD&D world. The idea that magic-users had to find spells to add them to their spellbook was fascinating. Coming from D&D, were spell acquisition was much more perfunctory, it added a bit of spice to what was otherwise a collection of mechanics and straight bonuses/penalties.

Interestingly, although it is not explicitly called an optional rule, the explanation of Maximum Number of Spells per Level is put into the blue box that is otherwise used for optional rules throughout the book.

Wisdom – Like with Intelligence, Magical Defense Adjustment, Bonus Spells, and Chance of Spell Failure from 1st Edition are joined by Spell Immunity. This Spell Immunity applies to specific named spells, i.e., the spells that have mind control effects such as Charm Person, Command, Hold Person, etc. WIS 19 gives immunity to first level spells of that sort, and each subsequent WIS score provides immunity against the next level of spells, up to level six at WIS 25.

Charisma – The Charisma bonus table is exactly the same as 1st Edition: Maximum Number of Henchmen, Loyalty Base, and Reaction Adjustment. However, while Loyalty Base and Reaction Adjustment were presented as percentage bonuses in 1st Ed., in 2nd Edition they are single digit bonuses. Loyalty and Reactions were percentile systems in 1st Ed., but in 2nd Ed. they are determined by a 2d10 roll.

The 2nd Edition books are well-organized. But they aren’t always the best edited. Page references or index entries are sometimes off by a page. And there’s a big mix-up here. The Charisma section has the first explicitly mentioned optional rule: Racial Adjustment to Charisma. This is apparently a reworking 1st Edition’s Racial Preferences Table, in that one’s Charisma adjustments could be modified depending on what race you were, and what race you were dealing with.

“If your DM is using this rule,” it says, “your character’s apparent Charisma may be altered when dealing with beings of different races. These alterations are given in Chapter 2 (page 20), after the different player character races have been explained.”

Passing by the page reference referring to the start of the chapter rather than the exact page of the rule, as a matter of fact there are no such alterations noted. After the description of each player character race, there’s a section on Other Characteristics that talks about height, weight, and age. That concludes Chapter 2, with Chapter 3: Player Character Classes beginning right after.

Some thoughts on the Abilities section as a whole: this section is well written and organized. It is replete with examples, using characters named Rath and Delsenora, for columns that are not so straightforward. The tables are clean and easy to read. The chapter is nicely brought to a close with What the Numbers Mean.

This takes a sample character, Rath, and provides two different interpretations for what the same set of ability scores could mean.
1) Although Rath is in good health (Con 13), he’s not very strong (Str 8) because he’s just plain lazy—he never wanted to exercise as a youth, and now it’s too late. His low Wisdom and Charisma scores (7, 6) show that he lacks the common sense to apply himself properly and projects a slothful, ‘I’m not going to bother’ attitude (which tends to irritate others. Fortunately, Rath’s natural wit (Int 13) and Dexterity (14) keep him from being a total loss.

Thus you might play Rath as an irritating, smart-alecky twerp forever ducking just out of range of those who want to squash him.

2) Rath has several good points—he has studied hard (Int 13) and practiced his manual skills (Dex 14). Unfortunately, his Strength is low (8) from a lack of exercise (all those hours spent reading books). Despite that, Rath’s health is still good (Con 13). His low Wisdom and Charisma (7, 6) are a result of his lack of contact and involvement with people outside the realm of academics.

Looking at the scores this way, you could play Rath as a kindly, naïve, and shy professorial type who’s a good tinkerer, always fiddling with new ideas and inventions.

This kind of explanation of the interplay of ability scores is actually unique in all D&D (unless it is in 3e, which I do not own). And to me it perfectly encapsulates both why I love random character generation, and why I would never get into just using the ability bonuses instead of the full stat. For me, the appeal of D&D over other, perhaps more straightforward systems, is letting the character come to me, and using those unexpected results to come up with character ideas I’d never come up with on my own.

The section ends by recommending that players not give up on characters who have one or two low scores, but to see them as an opportunity for role-playing. "Too often," it says, "players become obsessed with 'good' stats. These players immediately give up on a character if he doesn't have a majority of above-average scores. There are even those who feel a character is hopeless if he doesn't have at least one ability of 17 or higher! Needless to say, these players would never consider playing a character with an ability score of 6 or 7."

I get it. It's not all about good scores, there's fun to be had even in low scores. It is an admirable sentiment, very suitable to the D&D of that time, but I fear always a little undercut by the AD&D bonuses and the ability requirements for certain races and classes. I suppose it was intentional to teach by example, but Rath has no bonuses from even his highest stat, and a fair number of penalties. This section says "Rath's survivability has a lot less to do with his ability scores than with your desire to play him." Yeah, but you're asking Rath's player to play on hard mode compared to his compatriots who have rolled comparatively more averagely.

It seems a strange hill to plant one's flag on, when the game you're revising explicitly said characters should be created to have higher scores, and you haven't changed the math at all. (And I must note again that D&D was right there!)

Dorfgs_480x480.png

This piece of art takes up the whole of page 19. I think it’s supposed to be an Elf and Dwarves, but my first instinct has always been that all of these are Halflings, even though they are wearing shoes.
 

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