Saves vs. DC

Hello all,

Does anyone think it is way to easy to raise your saving throw but way to hard to raise the DC to a spell???

It is possible to get a +5 cloak of resistance and a +5 luck bonus and a +5 insight bonus and a +5 sacred or profane bonus. Thats +20 + base save + abilty scores

BUT a wiz lets say sun elf with a 18 intel +2 intel for being sun elf raising it to 20 and all 5 abilty points bring it to 25 and a head band of intelect +6 bring your total intel to 31 and a mod of 10 now you add in spell focus +1 and improved spell focus +1 and a 9th level spell a max dc for only one school of magic being 31 (32 with spellcasting prodigy)

so if you were lvl 10 fighter you would have saving throw of...
27 Fort, 23 reflex, 23 will....only lvl ten and its vs a 20 wiz

(ps. not that a lvl 10 fighter could afford this stuff but I hope you get my point)

So....am I doing somthing wrong or missing somthing??? please tell me your thougts

The level 20 wizard can also have an inherent (i.e., wish) bonus of up to +5 to Int.

And super-save man is best attacked with spells that don't allow saves. The power word spells, for example. Heck, even magic missile - Maximized or Empowered, say - would be helpful (especially to soften up the fighter a bit for using a power word). Or maybe summon some monsters and tell them to slay the fighter for you.

re

Super_Nerd said:

Hello all,

Does anyone think it is way to easy to raise your saving throw but way to hard to raise the DC to a spell???

It is possible to get a +5 cloak of resistance and a +5 luck bonus and a +5 insight bonus and a +5 sacred or profane bonus. Thats +20 + base save + abilty scores

BUT a wiz lets say sun elf with a 18 intel +2 intel for being sun elf raising it to 20 and all 5 abilty points bring it to 25 and a head band of intelect +6 bring your total intel to 31 and a mod of 10 now you add in spell focus +1 and improved spell focus +1 and a 9th level spell a max dc for only one school of magic being 31 (32 with spellcasting prodigy)

so if you were lvl 10 fighter you would have saving throw of...
27 Fort, 23 reflex, 23 will....only lvl ten and its vs a 20 wiz

(ps. not that a lvl 10 fighter could afford this stuff but I hope you get my point)

So....am I doing somthing wrong or missing somthing??? please tell me your thougts

Click to expand...

What normal lvl 10 character besides a Paladin and possibly a cleric is going to have all those bonuses at once? IF they do, then your DM should be shot.

I don't see too much wrong with spell DC's, but I do think they should have some magic items that give Spell DC's a raise much like a fighter receives a magic enhancement on his weapons. Probably as not as high, but some kind of magic item that benefits DC's would be nice.

Darkness said:

The level 20 wizard can also have an inherent (i.e., wish) bonus of up to +5 to Int.

Click to expand...

I thought the +5 you get every 4 levels counted as a inherent bonus but I have reason to belive I suck at this game so I have a good chance of being wrong

Super_Nerd said:

I thought the +5 you get every 4 levels counted as a inherent bonus...

Click to expand...

No. The level increases aren't bonuses at all; they're a change in the base score.

An inherent bonus is the result of powerful magic, not just going up levels

-Hyp.

Well, noone will have all those bonuses, except some weird munchkin's dream!

The only thing I see as wrong is the new Spell Focus (see my topic about this here in the rules forum for further information).

Bye
Thanee

Super_Nerd said:

Does anyone think it is way to easy to raise your saving throw...

Click to expand...

Not really.

Super_Nerd said:

...but way to hard to raise the DC to a spell???

Click to expand...

It's harder to do it in 3.5, but it's not too hard, IMO.

Super_Nerd said:

It is possible to get a +5 cloak of resistance and a +5 luck bonus and a +5 insight bonus and a +5 sacred or profane bonus. Thats +20 + base save + abilty scores

Click to expand...

That's also 687,500 gp, assuming it occupies a slot.

Super_Nerd said:

So....am I doing somthing wrong or missing somthing???

Click to expand...

Only the price tag.

Let's see... Assuming you play at levels where you have so much money, your character will probably suck a lot at everything else because he lacks the standard magic equipment such as flying stuff, selfboosters and potions

Super-Nerd,

I know it seems like Saves far outpace DCs, and I believe there is a disparity there. However, it isn't as significant as you seem to believe. As was already pointed out, few if any PCs will ever have all the bonuses you listed. Players simply have too many goodies to choose from, to want to put all of their wealth into saving-throw enhancers. My pesonal experience has been that the average PC will probably have a Cloak of Resistance, and may have a save-boosting feat or two, but that's about it.

The problem you're describing is real, but smaller than you might think.

As a practical matter you will never ever see SuperSaveMan at levels 1-10 -- you will never have enough cash unless you totally ignore offense. It also means you are going light on utility items like Winged Boots that are more likely to save your life. Yes, you may make all your saves vs. poison, but the collosal scorpion will still eat you.

It is plausible to get a pretty good stacking up towards level 15. In my book, those are 'epic' characters that should rarely be snuffed out by a single spell.

Note that we are talking about PC superstacking in most cases because NPCs have much less wealth. Is it really a problem if a PC chooses to maximize defense? Seems like a valid path to me.

IMNSHO the very last thing I would ever complain about as a player is an NPC that has spent most of his limited resources on strong defenses. There are far more troublesome options available to the DM.

(Slight aside...) As someone who plays a wizard, I really do not have any problems with the save system as is. (I never thought much of Spell Focus even in 3.0.) My only complaint is I think that SR should be removed from the game. But that is not usually an issue when dealing with character classed NPCs.