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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9331124" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>So players can decide if they want to play a weak or strong class, choices should have ramifications. Why take that choice away by making everything equal?</p><p></p><p>For example, I played an RAW 5E Monk level 1 to level 20, knowing it would be a weak class through levels 5-10 and a powerful martial, but still weak compared to full casters, after that.</p><p></p><p>To start with, I think any attempt to balance classes is doomed to failure unless you dramatically change the game mechanics, especially when you consider a class that is powerful at one level is weak at another. There are 3 pillars in the game, which complicates this even more.</p><p></p><p>For example Tasha's Ranger is by a wide margin the most powerful "martial" if you consider all 20 levels AND all 3 pillars AND include all optional rules from the PHB and TCE. However, Paladin is substantially more powerful in the combat pillar. So depending on the game a Ranger might be way more powerful or way less powerful than the Paladin in play. So if we want to balance these two classes what do we do? Make the Paladin into a skill guy or give him spells to accomplish skills? How do we beef up the combat potential of the Ranger, give him divine Smite? Now consider this 3-pillar problem if we throw Barbarian, Rogue and Fighter into this discussion and we haven't even covered all the martials yet.</p><p></p><p>Another example, Monks are widely regarded as the weakest class, however they are one of the strongest classes at 1st and 2nd level and they are again the strongest non-caster by quite a wide margin at level 14+. It is really levels 5-10 where they are weak (or 5-8 in games with a lot of Short rests).</p><p></p><p>So to balance the Monk with the other non-casters, we need to make it weaker at 1st at 2nd level, stronger at 5th-10th, then weaker again at 15+. We have to do this in a way that doesn't clash with previous adjustments on the class tree and in a fashion that stays balanced even when we look at complimentary racial options, complimentary feats or complimentary multiclass options. Far better than to just spell out where it is weak and where it is stong.</p><p></p><p>Another example - Full casters of some type hold the high rung as the most powerful class at almost every level, but it is not the same class at every level. For example Wizards and Sorcs (arguably the two strongest classes overall) are not very strong at level 1-4, being behind even Barbarians and Monks at some of these levels. Clerics and Druids are tops for levels 1-4 and Clerics at those levels are even better than Fighters or Paladins at playing a tank role. As far as casters go Druids are pretty weak from around levels 7 until Shapechange comes online at level 17, and then they vault back to near the top.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9331124, member: 7030563"] So players can decide if they want to play a weak or strong class, choices should have ramifications. Why take that choice away by making everything equal? For example, I played an RAW 5E Monk level 1 to level 20, knowing it would be a weak class through levels 5-10 and a powerful martial, but still weak compared to full casters, after that. To start with, I think any attempt to balance classes is doomed to failure unless you dramatically change the game mechanics, especially when you consider a class that is powerful at one level is weak at another. There are 3 pillars in the game, which complicates this even more. For example Tasha's Ranger is by a wide margin the most powerful "martial" if you consider all 20 levels AND all 3 pillars AND include all optional rules from the PHB and TCE. However, Paladin is substantially more powerful in the combat pillar. So depending on the game a Ranger might be way more powerful or way less powerful than the Paladin in play. So if we want to balance these two classes what do we do? Make the Paladin into a skill guy or give him spells to accomplish skills? How do we beef up the combat potential of the Ranger, give him divine Smite? Now consider this 3-pillar problem if we throw Barbarian, Rogue and Fighter into this discussion and we haven't even covered all the martials yet. Another example, Monks are widely regarded as the weakest class, however they are one of the strongest classes at 1st and 2nd level and they are again the strongest non-caster by quite a wide margin at level 14+. It is really levels 5-10 where they are weak (or 5-8 in games with a lot of Short rests). So to balance the Monk with the other non-casters, we need to make it weaker at 1st at 2nd level, stronger at 5th-10th, then weaker again at 15+. We have to do this in a way that doesn't clash with previous adjustments on the class tree and in a fashion that stays balanced even when we look at complimentary racial options, complimentary feats or complimentary multiclass options. Far better than to just spell out where it is weak and where it is stong. Another example - Full casters of some type hold the high rung as the most powerful class at almost every level, but it is not the same class at every level. For example Wizards and Sorcs (arguably the two strongest classes overall) are not very strong at level 1-4, being behind even Barbarians and Monks at some of these levels. Clerics and Druids are tops for levels 1-4 and Clerics at those levels are even better than Fighters or Paladins at playing a tank role. As far as casters go Druids are pretty weak from around levels 7 until Shapechange comes online at level 17, and then they vault back to near the top. [/QUOTE]
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